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SamoanEagle
New Member
United Kingdom
11 Posts |
 Posted - 10/09/2007 : 17:09:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Wow. I could not find anything incorrect in all that. What Condell said has been one of my worries for some time, but I don't know Europe all that well. I suspect that if things are going as he describes, a Fascist radical right will rise up to try to run the Muslims out of Europe. Unless secularism with a real spine becomes stronger first to stop Sharia law.
It would be interesting to hear European skeptics' thoughts on this.
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Um...
As a European skeptic, I can safely say that Condell is hugely alarmist. Whilst he does make some valid points (about religion in general), he's fallen prey to the worryingly common assumption that all Muslims are radical Islamists. That is no more true than saying that all Christians are abortion clinic-bombing, gay-hating, misogynist fundies.
Europe is not under threat from Muslims. The protest in Brussels that he refers to was against the 'Islamisation of Europe' and was connected to Belgian far-right groups. The vast majority of European Muslims are no more dangerous than any other religious types. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2007 : 18:01:33 [Permalink]
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Welcome to SFN, SamoanEagle! Thanks for your comments.
To be fair, Condell doesn't say "all Muslims are radical Islamists." An atheist, Condell doesn't consider Islam to be different in kind from other religions, merely the scariest among equals. And Condell's quite tough on Christian fundies.
I think he sees a quantitative difference, not a qualitative one, between fundy Christians and fundy Muslims. Also, he does not tar all Muslims with the same brush. I think he's being realistic when he expresses concerns about a Europe in the next fifty years that begins to become majority-Muslim. Like the fundamentalist Christian sharks among gentler American Christians, Islamists bully and silence opposition within their own community. They are already pushing, with some success, to enforce aspects of Shariah law in Europe. I cannot imagine that they would not do much more, as massive immigration pushes them toward a majority.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 10/09/2007 18:01:52 |
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SamoanEagle
New Member
United Kingdom
11 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2007 : 18:31:22 [Permalink]
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Thanks for the welcome, HalfMooner 
I have to confess that I'm a little puzzled by predictions of a Muslim majority Europe in the next 50 years - here in the UK there are less than 2m Muslims in a population of well over 60m, and whilst there are substantial Muslim populations in Germany, France, Holland and Belgium (and Muslims in many other countries)the population of the EU is around 4% Muslim. There's going to have to be some seriously determined (ahem) reproducing to get that up past 50% in the next 50 years...
As an atheist myself, I don't consider Islam to be any different than other religions. I don't think it's inherently scarier than Christianity, which also condones stonings for adultery (amongst other things). Please don't get the impression that I'm a moral relativist, but the tone of that video had far too much in common with the anti-immigrant rhetoric of UKIP and the BNP for my liking.
Immigration really isn't that massive, and a Muslim majority in Europe is never, ever going to happen. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2007 : 18:56:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by SamoanEagle
Thanks for the welcome, HalfMooner
I have to confess that I'm a little puzzled by predictions of a Muslim majority Europe in the next 50 years - here in the UK there are less than 2m Muslims in a population of well over 60m, and whilst there are substantial Muslim populations in Germany, France, Holland and Belgium (and Muslims in many other countries)the population of the EU is around 4% Muslim. There's going to have to be some seriously determined (ahem) reproducing to get that up past 50% in the next 50 years...
As an atheist myself, I don't consider Islam to be any different than other religions. I don't think it's inherently scarier than Christianity, which also condones stonings for adultery (amongst other things). Please don't get the impression that I'm a moral relativist, but the tone of that video had far too much in common with the anti-immigrant rhetoric of UKIP and the BNP for my liking.
Immigration really isn't that massive, and a Muslim majority in Europe is never, ever going to happen.
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I don't think I expressed myself clearly. I should have mentioned that the "majority" prediction was about France specifically, not Europe in general. Apparently -- and admit I don't know for myself that this is accurate -- that potential majority is based upon the low birthrate among the non-Muslim French in general, projecting a continuing high migration rate, and a high birthrate among Muslims in France. Of course, if Muslims reach a majority in ALL of Europe, yet are assimilated into secular society, this would be almost a non-issue.
Christianity doesn't actively these days enforce stoning for adultery, anywhere I know about. Some, in the US, might want to bring that back, certainly. Islam actively does stonings now, in several countries.
I have no sympathy with the nationalist and neo-fascist movements. What I do think is fair and is that immigrants be required to embrace the laws and ideals of their host countries. Most do, here and in other countries. But there really does seem to be a danger in that small but ruthless minority that puts their fanaticism above all else, and above all other people. It does seem to me that Europe is living with a more realistic day-to-day fear of terror than is the USA at present. Various plots seem to be disrupted almost on a daily basis.
As the saying goes, terrorists only need to get lucky once, we have to be lucky all the time.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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SamoanEagle
New Member
United Kingdom
11 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2007 : 20:26:08 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
I don't think I expressed myself clearly. I should have mentioned that the "majority" prediction was about France specifically, not Europe in general. Apparently -- and admit I don't know for myself that this is accurate -- that potential majority is based upon the low birthrate among the non-Muslim French in general, projecting a continuing high migration rate, and a high birthrate among Muslims in France. Of course, if Muslims reach a majority in ALL of Europe, yet are assimilated into secular society, this would be almost a non-issue.
Christianity doesn't actively these days enforce stoning for adultery, anywhere I know about. Some, in the US, might want to bring that back, certainly. Islam actively does stonings now, in several countries.
I have no sympathy with the nationalist and neo-fascist movements. What I do think is fair and is that immigrants be required to embrace the laws and ideals of their host countries. Most do, here and in other countries. But there really does seem to be a danger in that small but ruthless minority that puts their fanaticism above all else, and above all other people. It does seem to me that Europe is living with a more realistic day-to-day fear of terror than is the USA at present. Various plots seem to be disrupted almost on a daily basis.
As the saying goes, terrorists only need to get lucky once, we have to be lucky all the time.
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The percentage Muslim population in France is (IIRC) around 5-6% - so I'm not sure who's coming up with these predictions(Just had a look at Wikipedia and they cite 4%) - but as far as I'm concerned this 'Muslim majority' stuff is scaremongering, pure and simple.
As far as I know, no Christian church approves of stonings and the like these days (funny how they pick and choose which bits of the Bible they like...), but my point was that most Muslims in Europe wouldn't condone that sort of thing either. I'm not pretending that such people don't exist - clearly they do - but fundie Muslims are no more prevalent in Europe than fundie Christians.
As someone who lives and has grown up in east London, I know and interact with a fairly large number of Muslims. From my experience (not that I'm claiming to be an expert on anything at all), they are no different from the Christians that I also know and interact with. (In fairness, I probably know more Muslims than Christians. Practicing Christians in my part of the world tend to be loony fundies. Agnosticism is becoming the norm - or maybe just apathy)
I absolutely agree that immigrants ought to embrace the laws of their new countries. Ideals... well, that's a little trickier - how does anyone define the ideals of any particular nation-state?
There certainly is a small minority of Muslims within Europe which believes in terrorist attacks, but this minority is neither representative of European Muslims in general, nor widely supported. Concepts which are unpleasant, though not on the same scale, such as Sharia law for Muslims, do have some level of popular support among European Muslims. However, national laws and EU law would not allow Sharia to be implemented. Condell suggests that there have been judgements around Europe which support Sharia, but I've never come across these before, and I'd be interested to know where he gets his information, as I haven't seen these stories in any news coverage in the UK.
There is a terror threat from Islamist extremists within Europe, but terrorism is not something new to us. My concern is that this threat is leading us down the path of erosion of civil liberties, and also leading towards an essentially racist Islamophobia. Islam is certainly no better than any other religion but, on paper at least, it is no worse.
(I think I'm going to like these forums a lot, having had a look around.) |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2007 : 21:44:57 [Permalink]
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SE wrote:| (I think I'm going to like these forums a lot, having had a look around.) |
Great! I'll let someone else reply. Kinda tired right now. Thanks again for the view from the UK.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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dv82matt
SFN Regular
760 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2007 : 02:46:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by SamoanEagle
The percentage Muslim population in France is (IIRC) around 5-6% - so I'm not sure who's coming up with these predictions(Just had a look at Wikipedia and they cite 4%) - but as far as I'm concerned this 'Muslim majority' stuff is scaremongering, pure and simple.
As far as I know, no Christian church approves of stonings and the like these days (funny how they pick and choose which bits of the Bible they like...), but my point was that most Muslims in Europe wouldn't condone that sort of thing either. I'm not pretending that such people don't exist - clearly they do - but fundie Muslims are no more prevalent in Europe than fundie Christians.
As someone who lives and has grown up in east London, I know and interact with a fairly large number of Muslims. From my experience (not that I'm claiming to be an expert on anything at all), they are no different from the Christians that I also know and interact with. (In fairness, I probably know more Muslims than Christians. Practicing Christians in my part of the world tend to be loony fundies. Agnosticism is becoming the norm - or maybe just apathy)
I absolutely agree that immigrants ought to embrace the laws of their new countries. Ideals... well, that's a little trickier - how does anyone define the ideals of any particular nation-state?
There certainly is a small minority of Muslims within Europe which believes in terrorist attacks, but this minority is neither representative of European Muslims in general, nor widely supported. Concepts which are unpleasant, though not on the same scale, such as Sharia law for Muslims, do have some level of popular support among European Muslims. However, national laws and EU law would not allow Sharia to be implemented. Condell suggests that there have been judgements around Europe which support Sharia, but I've never come across these before, and I'd be interested to know where he gets his information, as I haven't seen these stories in any news coverage in the UK.
There is a terror threat from Islamist extremists within Europe, but terrorism is not something new to us. My concern is that this threat is leading us down the path of erosion of civil liberties, and also leading towards an essentially racist Islamophobia. Islam is certainly no better than any other religion but, on paper at least, it is no worse.
(I think I'm going to like these forums a lot, having had a look around.)
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It's good to get some perspective on this.
Is Pat Condell being alarmist? Sure a bit, but he is at heart a comedian. Even though this isn't a comedy routine he is still entertaining and he is a good speaker, so he comes across as more convincing than the unvarnished facts warrant.
I think there is a tendency for skeptics to be a bit alarmist when it come to religion which isn't all that surprising since religion is in many ways the antithesis of skeptisicm and is so widespread. And it's better to be a bit alarmist than to fail to give any warning at all. Skeptics are only human after all.
Welcome to the boards SamoanEagle. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2007 : 03:18:35 [Permalink]
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SamoanEagle wrote: | Immigration really isn't that massive, and a Muslim majority in Europe is never, ever going to happen. |
And if it were to happen, it would happen so gradually over so much time, there is no predicting what kind of Muslim these future Europeans would be. When people migrate and live among another dominant culture, even if they segregate themselves into their own communities, their own culture is changed. Just looks at how diverse the various cultures dominated by Christianity are. For all we know, by the time the people who were ancestrally Muslim dominate Europe (if ever) the majority of them might no longer be Muslim, or might be some modernized, liberalized version of Islam that is as benign as modern-day, slack-ass Christianity.
I very much agree with your contention that the Condell is feeding alarmist mentalities, and that is also something to be concerned about.
I worry just as much about racism and ethnocentricism against Arab Muslims in Europe because that would encourage them to be segregated and to define themselves by their devotion to Islam. But if they are treated like anyone else, they assimilate into a modern mentality more easily. Not to say that they'd give up their identity and religion, but that it would be compatible with the values of modernism (which many Islamic communities already are.)
Halfmooner wrote: | Christianity doesn't actively these days enforce stoning for adultery, anywhere I know about. Some, in the US, might want to bring that back, certainly. Islam actively does stonings now, in several countries. |
These sort of comparisons are false. The only third world countries today dominated by Christianity had Christianity brought to them by Westerners, and all the countries that are the historical birth places of Christianity are also the birthplaces of the next philosophical wave of modernism and Enlightenment (which arguably decimated traditional Christianity). But the Arab world is historically entrenched in an Agrarian tribal culture, and the places where such things as stonings are legally practiced are in the position of historically being oppressed and exploited by the modernized world. It is absurd to blame religion itself for customs which are so deeply rooted in culture and history as a whole. Extremist Islam is the scary thing it is right now due to the course of history, not because Islam is inherently more scary than any other religion. Under the right circumstances and flow of events, it could become as benign as the average Christian sect. And other the right circumstances, Christianity could once again become as frightening as Islam can currently be.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2007 : 03:48:45 [Permalink]
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I agree that fundy Christianity could (and may someday) become as completely backward as fundy Islam. Islam was in many areas far more enlightened than Christendom during Europe's Dark Ages.
But this is Islam's own comparative Dark Age, now. Islam's got the stonings, the hangings of gays, and the beheading of adulterous women. And that's not excesses by a few extremist fanatics, those those happen via national legal systems. That's vastly worse than present-day fundy Christianity.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 10/10/2007 03:55:17 |
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SamoanEagle
New Member
United Kingdom
11 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2007 : 07:36:51 [Permalink]
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Glad I seem to have been making sense... my last post was at 4.30am my time, so my brain wasn't quite at optimum functionality.
Originally posted by HalfMooner
But this is Islam's own comparative Dark Age, now. Islam's got the stonings, the hangings of gays, and the beheading of adulterous women. And that's not excesses by a few extremist fanatics, those those happen via national legal systems. That's vastly worse than present-day fundy Christianity. |
I agree - but that's not what's going on in Europe. Surveys in the UK have shown that most Muslims over here believe that it is right to follow the laws of the land and have no desire to see the Sharia introduced in this country.
dv82matt - Thanks for the welcome
The problem that I have with this sort of alarmism is that it plays into the hands of both Muslim fundies ("See, they don't like any of us, no matter if we try to fit in or not") and also unpleasant far-right fundies (who are often professed Christians). Skepticism shouldn't lead to alarmism - that's failure to apply skepticism properly.
marfknox - I'm in total agreement  |
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dv82matt
SFN Regular
760 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2007 : 09:34:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by SamoanEagle
dv82matt - Thanks for the welcome
The problem that I have with this sort of alarmism is that it plays into the hands of both Muslim fundies ("See, they don't like any of us, no matter if we try to fit in or not") and also unpleasant far-right fundies (who are often professed Christians). |
I see what you're saying but I don't think what Pat said was all that extreme.
| Skepticism shouldn't lead to alarmism - that's failure to apply skepticism properly. |
Well you are absolutely right about that. I'd just point out that even the most skeptical among us is human first, skeptic second. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2007 : 18:37:38 [Permalink]
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SamoanEagle, sorry for being late but... WELCOME!
We need more European representation on the forum.
There used to be active Swedes, Dutch, and a few more, but they have become irregular and/or seem to have left altogether.
My experience of England is four trips to London, and a few hours in Newcastle.
(at least I saw the great wall...  ) |
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Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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