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echthroi_man
Skeptic Friend
104 Posts |
 Posted - 08/03/2002 : 21:43:04
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This is from The Oxford Companion to Philosophy, edited by Ted Honderich, Oxford Univerity Press, 1995, pg. 375-6:
quote:
Humanism is also associated with the Renaissance, when it denoted a move away from God to man as the center of interest. God still remained as creator and supreme authority---the Renaissance humanists were far from being atheists---but his activity was seen as less immediate, more as general control than as day-to-day interference, and the enabled a scientific outlook to arise which saw the universe as governed by general laws, albeit these were laid down by God . . . One feature which made this specifically a humanist development was the emphasis it both presupposed and, by its sucesses, encouraged on the ability of man to find out about the universe by his own methods, and more and more to control it.
So it would seem that not only does modern humanism owe some of its fundamental tenets to Chistian humanism, liberal science owes its existence in part to Christian humanism as well.
A reference given that you may find useful is Renaissance Humanism, edited by A. Rabil, Jr., Philadelphia, 1988.
The Irish Headhunter
Oblivion -- When you REALLY want to get away from it all!
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2002 : 21:59:55 [Permalink]
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Is this supposed to be incriminating? Did people not behave in humanistic ways before Christianity? Are people not capable of making humanistic choices without subconsciously referencing "Christian principles"? Creationism preceeded evolution temporally as well. Does that mean evolution is somehow indebted to creationism because creationism was the "original" origin-of-life study?
Modern science owes everything to people, not Christianity. People, not Christianity, are intellectually curious. People, not Christianity, ask the questions that science tries to answer.
I'm growing quickly tired of your unfounded intellectual snobbery.
Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.
-D. Hume |
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echthroi_man
Skeptic Friend
104 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2002 : 22:17:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Is this supposed to be incriminating?
On another thread I indicated that modern humanism had taken a number of its tenets from Christian humanism. Slater asked for references supporting this claim. I just provided them. That is all.
It is quite clear that modern humanism and liberal science owe much to Chistian humanists; evolution owes nothing to creationism. That is the difference.
I see it as a good thing, not a bad thing. Only atheists who want to believe that Christianity is evil would blatantly deny the clear evidence that Christian thought led to both modern humanism and liberal science.
Or do you think the author of the article I quoted from is being intellectually snobbish as well?
The Irish Headhunter
Oblivion -- When you REALLY want to get away from it all! |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2002 : 22:47:13 [Permalink]
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Nice rhetoric. I am moving this to an appropriate forum.
 @tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2002 : 23:01:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
I see it as a good thing, not a bad thing. Only atheists who want to believe that Christianity is evil would blatantly deny the clear evidence that Christian thought led to both modern humanism and liberal science.
I knew you would try this. Where is your evidence that the thinkers in question were driven to think the things they did because of Christianity? Do we owe the concept of a republic to the 'polytheistic thinking' of Plato?
quote:
Or do you think the author of the article I quoted from is being intellectually snobbish as well?
Trying to give credit to a philosophy borne out of ancient goatherder myths rather than the independent thinkers that subscribed to those myths is reprehensible.
Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.
-D. Hume |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2002 : 23:20:37 [Permalink]
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Due to Christianity, the benefits of humanism were delayed by about 1800 years...
What is this "Christian Humanism" you refer to?
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I am the storm
Sent to wake you from your dreams
Show me your scorn
But you'll thank me in the end |
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echthroi_man
Skeptic Friend
104 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2002 : 06:39:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Trying to give credit to a philosophy borne out of ancient goatherder myths rather than the independent thinkers that subscribed to those myths is reprehensible.
Read again what that person wrote: ". . . and this [Christian humanism] enabled a scientifi outlook to arise which saw the universe as governed by general laws, albeit these were laid down by God."
He staes it was the formalized thought of the institurion of Christian numanism that gave rise to liberal science, not simply "curious" people. There were plenty of curious people before the rise of Christian humanism, but they did not imagine it possible that they could investigate the universe by their own methods; the worldview they had told them that such knowledge could only come through revelation. Then Christian humanism arises, saying that the universe is governed by general laws and now it was possible for people who adopted this worldview to investigate the universe in an empirical manner.
The Irish Headhunter
Oblivion -- When you REALLY want to get away from it all! |
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echthroi_man
Skeptic Friend
104 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2002 : 06:45:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
Due to Christianity, the benefits of humanism were delayed by about 1800 years...
Due to Christianity we now have the benefits of liberal science.
quote:
What is this "Christian Humanism" you refer to?
It's explained in the excerpt I quoted. It is the adaptation by Christians of Greek humanism to create a Christian-based worldview that viewed man as the center of interest and which allowed for the empirical investigation of the universe.
The Irish Headhunter
Oblivion -- When you REALLY want to get away from it all! |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2002 : 21:54:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
Read again what that person wrote: ". . . and this [Christian humanism] enabled a scientifi outlook to arise which saw the universe as governed by general laws, albeit these were laid down by God."
Maybe I'm missing something since I've only read the blurb you've posted and not the entire book--but the only times I see the word "Christian" written is when you do it.
In the Ted Honderich piece I read a straight forward discription of Diesim.
"...it denoted a move away from God to man as the center of interest. God still remained as creator and supreme authority." That's not Christianity.
Of course they weren't Atheists. If someone at that time said that they were an Atheist they were put to death by fire as Christ commanded.
Atheist intellectuals of that day were expressing such deep thoughts as. "Please don't kill me AAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH!"
So if you are going to give references to Christian Humanism-from before the 1800's you are going to have to try again. Ain't no Christians even mentioned here.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2002 : 00:16:04 [Permalink]
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Hello, all. I can imagine the sighs of exasperation…”He's Back, where's the ignore button?”
Anyhow, I don't get it—As usual!
quote:
So it would seem that not only does modern humanism owe some of its fundamental tenets to Chistian humanism, liberal science owes its existence in part to Christian humanism as well.
Is this post supposed to suggest that modern liberal science owes it's existence to Christianity? I may be a dumb assed cracker from down the bayou, but doesn't this statement seem a bit naïve, or more accurately, meaningless.
I would agree that Christianity is involved with the evolution toward modern western philosophy, and therefore, may have had a role in the evolution of modern liberal sciences, but so does polytheism, world exploration, slavery, facism, and even bloodletting! What's the point? Perhaps, we may come to the conclusion that we learn from our mistakes when concerned with the influence of Christianity. Personally, I'd prefer to avoid both assumptions. They seem equally predjudiced.
Next, the conclusion doesn't seem to follow the premises. As Slater pointed out, echthroi's quote in the original post does not mention Christianity. The emphasis seems to be on western style monotheism. Assuming the intent is specifically concerned with Christianity is rather biased, I would think.
Furthermore, by this same line of reasoning, couldn't we come to the conclusion that Christianity owes its' existence Egyptian myth? Oh, I'm sorry, it does—Doesn't it? (Apologies…I couldn't resist the barb!)
That said, I have one final question. What the hell is Christian humanism?
"The Constitution ..., is a marvelous document for self-government by Christian people. But the minute you turn the document into the hands of non-Christian and atheistic people they can use it to destroy the very foundation of our society." P. Robertson |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2002 : 08:21:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
What the hell is Christian humanism?
I'd still like to know also.
When reading what ecthroi_man has typed about it, an analogy that springs to mind:
Thomas Edison was a Christian, therefore we have Christian lightbulbs. (I have no idea if he was a Christian, it's just an example).
Hey, so I suck at making analogies! Sue me! 
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I am the storm
Sent to wake you from your dreams
Show me your scorn
But you'll thank me in the end |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2002 : 08:43:08 [Permalink]
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What's your lawyer's name?
quote:
Hey, so I suck at making analogies! Sue me! ll thank me in the end
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2002 : 08:58:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
[quote]
I have no idea if he was a Christian, it's just an example
Okay, just an example, I know the point you are making and this reply is somewhat beside it--but you will have trouble finding an actual example of professed Christians who actually benefited mankind. Somehow subjective religious thinking cripples a person for objective thinking.
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My mind is incapable of conceiving such a thing as a soul. I may be in error, and man may have a soul; but I simply do not believe it.
-- Thomas Edison, "Do We Live Again?"
I have never seen the slightest scientific proof of the religious theories of heaven and hell, of future life for individuals, or of a personal God.
-- Thomas Edison, Columbian Magazine,
I cannot believe in the immortality of the soul.... No, all this talk of an existence for us, as individuals, beyond the grave is wrong. It is born of our tenacity of life -- our desire to go on living -- our dread of coming to an end.
-- Thomas Edison, interview in The New York Times (October 2, 1910) front of Magazine Section, by Edward Marshall, quoted from James A. Haught, "Breaking the Last Taboo" (1996)
I do not believe in the God of the theologians; but that there is a Supreme Intelligence I do not doubt.
-- Thomas Edison, quoted from Thomas S. Vernon, "Thomas Alva Edison"
All Bibles are man-made.
-- Thomas Edison (source unknown)
So far as religion of the day is concerned, it is a damned fake... Religion is all bunk.
-- Thomas Edison (source unknown)
It is the best book ever written on the subject. There is nothing like it!
-- Thomas Edison, on Thomas Paine's The Age of Reason, quoted by Joseph Lewis from a personal conversation, in "A Visit With Thomas Alva Edison"
I think that Ingersoll had all the attributes of a perfect man, and, in my opinion, no finer personality ever existed. Judging from the past, I cannot help thinking that the intention of the Supreme Intelligence that rules the world is to ultimately make such a type of man universal.
-- Thomas Edison, Front Matter to Ingersoll's Greatest Lectures, compiled by Joseph Lewis
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2002 : 14:51:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
What's your lawyer's name?
Leonard Crabs. Here's some examples of his work: http://www.somethingawful.com/legal/
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I am the storm
Sent to wake you from your dreams
Show me your scorn
But you'll thank me in the end |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2002 : 15:06:56 [Permalink]
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Actually Slater, that makes the analogy even better, considering ecthroi_man is wrong if he thinks the early humanists were Christian, instead of deists, just like Thomas Edison appears to be from your quotes.
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I am the storm
Sent to wake you from your dreams
Show me your scorn
But you'll thank me in the end |
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