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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
 Posted - 10/04/2002 : 23:18:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
How do you figure that normal cannons of research include drawing existential conclusions without any evidence what so ever?
err...?
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2002 : 05:34:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
darwin alogos wrote::
... if you take the NORMAL CANONS OF HISTORIC RESEARCH AS YOU WOULD TO ANY OTHER EVENT and apply them to the NT documents you will find they stand the test of historical inquiry abundantly well.
Please - Specify these canons.
- Apply them to the resurrection.
- Rely solely upon the earliest extant manuscript evidence.
- Clearly identify this evidence.
- Use real sentences.
I suspect that you will do a marginally better job of this if you first take your medicines. 
Edited by - ReasonableDoubt on 10/05/2002 05:36:00 |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2002 : 14:57:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Rely solely upon the earliest extant manuscript evidence.
Ach, a trick question. I love it. What is Dan Barker doing these days anyway?
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2002 : 15:31:03 [Permalink]
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Again from www.skepticsannotatedbible.com more anti-Semitism in the NT, this time from John
People are damned or saved depending only on what they believe. John:3:18,
The "wrath of God" is on all unbelievers. John:3:36
John, with his usual anti-Semitism, says that the Jews persucuted Jesus and "sought to slay him." John:5:16, 18
John says that Jesus "would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him." John:7:1
No one could speak openly about Jesus "for fear of the Jews." John:7:13
Jesus calls his opponents (the Jews) the sons of the devil. John:8:44
Once again, "the Jews" are accused of trying to kill Jesus. John:11:8
If you don't believe in Jesus you are going to hell. John:12:48
John blames the Jews for the death of Jesus. John:19:7, 12, 14-15
Those who do not believe in Jesus will be cast into a fire to be burned. John:15:6
John, with his usual anti-Semitism, says tht the disciples hid in locked room "for fear of the Jews." John:20:19
And now a quote from the OP "But this couldn't be if the writers were orthodox Jews.--DA" No, it couldn't
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2002 : 11:59:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
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Again from www.skepticsannotatedbible.com more anti-Semitism in the NT, this time from John
People are damned or saved depending only on what they believe. John:3:18,
The "wrath of God" is on all unbelievers. John:3:36
John, with his usual anti-Semitism, says that the Jews persucuted Jesus and "sought to slay him." John:5:16, 18
And now a quote from the OP "But this couldn''t be if the writers were orthodox Jews.--DA" No, it couldn''t
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First,the OBVIOUS. When the NT uses the phrase "the Jews" as say when Slater quotes John:7:13:No one could speak openly about Jesus "for fear of the Jews." The "one"s referred to as "No one" were "Jews",the fact that they couldn''t"speak openly about Jesus" was out fear of the Jewish Religious Leadership.So Slater,as usual,leaps before looks John was Jewish and his detailed knowledge of both the pre-70AD Jerusalem(when Titus totally destroyed it)and Jewish customs demonstrate that he was).Secondly,if Slater had
ANY FIRST HAND KNOWLEDGE OF THIS BIBLE HE HATES(both the NT and the undisputed Jewish Tanach)he would have KNOWN that the NT is following one of the many ancient Hebrew (OT=Tanach)traditions in criticising the current/in power Jewish leadership.For example:Malachi 2:1-9"And now...for you O priest.If you do not listen,and if set your heart to honor my name"says the LORD Almighty,"I will send a curse upon you...I have already cursed them,because you have not set your heart to honor me."Because of you I will rebuke your decendants... But you[the Jews] have turned from the way and by your teaching have caused many to stumble,...So I have caused you [the Jews] to be despised and humiliated before all people...";Zech.1:2-5"The LORD was very angry with your forefathers.Therefore tell the people[the Jews]...Do not be like your forefathers to whom the earlier prophets proclaimed...Turn from your evil ways and evil practices";Zeph.1:4-6"I will stretch out my hand against JUDAH and against ALL WHO LIVE IN JERUSALEM. I will cut off from this place every remnant of Baal and the names of the pagan and the idolatrous [Jewish] PRIEST -those who bow down on the roofs to worship the starry host,...those who turn back from following the LORD" [emph mine]. Now I could continue with at least 50 more examples of the JEWISH TANACH CRITICISING JEWS but if you doubt it check it out yourself.The point is I don''t think the "Orthodox Jews" of today are going to revise their Bible because of the harsh language it contains of their fellow "Jews".And by same token,if first century Jews crticise their fellow Jews for rejecting THEIR MESSIAH it can hardly be taken as anti-semitic.However,knowing Slater as I do this evidence will roll of him like water off a duck,I''ll go out on a limb and predict he will not even see the relevance of it and will hold all the more tenaciously to his irrational dogmatic position.
Edited by - darwin alogos on 10/08/2002 12:02:29 |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2002 : 14:52:05 [Permalink]
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First,the OBVIOUS. When the NT uses the phrase "the Jews" as say when Slater quotes John:7:13: No one could speak openly about Jesus "for fear of the Jews." The "one"s referred to as "No one" were "Jews", the fact that they couldn''t"speak openly about Jesus" was out fear of the Jewish Religious Leadership.
You must think that you are god almighty himself. Every time you open your bible it's meaning twists to fit your pleasure.
The NT is talking about christians who are being persecuted by the evil Jews just like the Jews persecuted god on Earth
John was Jewish
John, the author, was christian and lived in Greece
and his detailed knowledge of both the pre-70AD Jerusalem(when Titus totally destroyed it)and Jewish customs demonstrate that he was).
Absolute bull shit. Why would only Jews know about Jerusalem?
the NT is following one of the many ancient Hebrew (OT=Tanach)traditions in criticising the current/in power Jewish leadership.
The NT, a clearly Romanized piece of work, was starting the European tradition of persecuting Jews. It was supplying the justification for the slaughter of countless millions of people-the "Christ killers." Or did that never happen, like the dark ages never happened, in your mind?
However,knowing Slater as I do this evidence will roll of him like water off a duck,I''ll go out on a limb and predict he will not even see the relevance of it and will hold all the more tenaciously to his irrational dogmatic position.
I will go further out on that limb and predict that the relevance this "evidence" will fail to touch everyone who reads it here.
We are still waiting to hear how when a famous religious play that would have already been around 500 years old in the time of Paul has the same scene and the same piece of key dialogue as the road to Damascus fable you can possibly deny the "pagan" original of the NT story.
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2002 : 16:41:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
We are still waiting to hear how when a famous religious play that would have already been around 500 years old in the time of Paul has the same scene and the same piece of key dialogue as the road to Damascus fable you can possibly deny the "pagan" original of the NT story.
Excuse me but your outdated comparison of Paul and Pentheus is hardly worth even a mention.But being the nice guy that I am I'll let you off the hook.Can you give me JUST ONE reputable classical,NT,or historical scholar who would even give your cultic interpretation the time of day?
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2002 : 16:45:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
You must think that you are god almighty himself. Every time you open your bible it's meaning twists to fit your pleasure.
The NT is talking about christians who are being persecuted by the evil Jews just like the Jews persecuted god on Earth
John was Jewish
John, the author, was christian and lived in Greece
and his detailed knowledge of both the pre-70AD Jerusalem(when Titus totally destroyed it)and Jewish customs demonstrate that he was).
Absolute bull shit. Why would only Jews know about Jerusalem?
the NT is following one of the many ancient Hebrew (OT=Tanach)traditions in criticising the current/in power Jewish leadership.
The NT, a clearly Romanized piece of work, was starting the European tradition of persecuting Jews. It was supplying the justification for the slaughter of countless millions of people-the "Christ killers." Or did that never happen, like the dark ages never happened, in your mind?
Ditto for this emotive outburst Slater,what scholarship supports these strange views of yours?
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2002 : 17:56:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Ditto for this emotive outburst Slater,what scholarship supports these strange views of yours?
You are trying to make people believe that anti-Semitism is Jewish tradition, you are one sick puppy.
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled
Edited by - slater on 10/08/2002 18:13:41 |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2002 : 18:12:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Excuse me but your outdated comparison of Paul and Pentheus is hardly worth even a mention.But being the nice guy that I am I'll let you off the hook.Can you give me JUST ONE reputable classical,NT,or historical scholar who would even give your cultic interpretation the time of day?
Outdated comparison of Paul and Pentheus? What it has a date stamped on it like a container of milk?
Cultic? How can I be an Atheist and a Cultist at the same time?
In the section on the multiple authorship of "Luke" in Who Wrote the Gospels? biblical scholar Randel Helms has great fun with this.
But you don't really need to be a scholar. All you need is to be able to read. And there you have it, the same story told two times. And if there was any doubt the second story lifts one of the seminal dramatic lines from the first.
You can't blow this off by saying it's hardly worth a mention. "Luke" has been caught red handed stealing a Pagan myth and trying to pass it off as something new.
Shut your eyes and stick your fingers in your ears the NT is still made up of pre-existing mythology. Euripides lived from 485 to 406 BCE. The gospel truths are fictions, and you know it, you've read it for yourself.
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2002 : 12:42:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
Wells admits his writing of Wells 1975 benefited from this and other criticisms, the penultimate chapter of this book being titled "The Pagan and Jewish Background" (italics mine). In Wells 1988, Wells spends seven pages discussing Paul and the Jewish Wisdom Literature, in which he states:
These earliest Christians were Jews. Early Christian documents accept the God of Israel, the Old Testament, Jewish apocalyptic and angelology, and Jewish ideas about the Messiah. A non-Jewish origin for a sect which embraced all this is out of the question. Hence the Jewish, rather than the pagan, religious background is likely to be of prime importance in explaining the conviction of the earliest Christians that, at some unspecified time past, a redeemer named Jesus had been obscurely crucified (pp.37-38).
Just as I thought Slater your stuck out in the academic cold,as far as finding any reputable scholar who would hold to your cultic view [: great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad b : a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion
- cul·tic /'k&l-tik/ adjective].However,I had no problem finding one your "scholars" who at least agrees with me that the NT documents are Jewish origins(see top quote from:Tyler-Wonder When Theories Collidep.2 Poor Slater).
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2002 : 19:25:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
darwin alogos attempts:
However,I had no problem finding one your "scholars" who at least agrees with me that the NT documents are Jewish origins(see top quote from:Tyler-Wonder When Theories Collide
Before claiming your pet scholar, you should minimally - learn how to spell his name
- wait for him to get out of school, and
- rely on a bit more than an essay that "is the product of a directed study taken with Professor Michael Martin at Boston University"
Further more, I am sure that Mr. Wunder would encourage you to attempt competent sentences.
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2002 : 00:13:43 [Permalink]
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What the hell are you talking about DA?
You said
quote:
Excuse me but your outdated comparison of Paul and Pentheus is hardly worth even a mention.But being the nice guy that I am I'll let you off the hook.Can you give me JUST ONE reputable classical,NT,or historical scholar who would even give your cultic interpretation the time of day?
And I gave his name (Randel Helms) and a book reference to you. I know that you didn't read Euripides, I know you can't bring yourself to read Campbell or even Bullfinch or Frazer...But it seems that you don't even read what you yourself write.
Explain to us how it is that a Jew who converts to Christianity would be incapable of ascribing to it Zoroasterian myths?
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2002 : 09:13:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
Before claiming your pet scholar, you should minimally
learn how to spell his name
wait for him to get out of school, and
rely on a bit more than an essay that "is the product of a directed study taken with Professor Michael Martin at Boston University"
Further more, I am sure that Mr. Wunder would encourage you to attempt competent sentences.
Still hiding behind SMOKE SCREENS RD?Why can't you be aware of the obvious fact that it was the source that Mr. Wunder-boy quoted(a Prof. G.A. Wells,a Christmyther who Slater likes to quote),that I was bringing to the attention of Mr. Ideologue(Slater)that his main squeeze totally disagrees with him concerning the source of the NT documents.  
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2002 : 09:48:56 [Permalink]
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I find the contortions of Apologetics interesting. Idiotic, but funny. On another site I've been watching one fellow deny that there are two, mutually exclusive stories of the death of Judas in the NT (in one he feels great guilt and commits suicide while in the other he buys some property in Jerusalem -not something a suicidal person is apt to do- but suffers a disgusting accident before he can enjoy it). He does this by making up a third story, which appears nowhere in the NT, and then calling everyone names who disagree with him. But that guy, at least, can write a proper sentence.
The contention in this thread is just as wacky. The NT was written by Orthodox Jews so it can't be a collection of Hellenistic myths.
First, no matter who wrote the NT it is a collection of recycled Hellenistic myths from the Immaculate Conception to Saul on the Damascus road.
I have focused on Saul because not only can we clearly seen that it is a copy of a popular Dionysian myth, we can see that it was taken from a specific famous play written about that myth. The old double-whammy.
Second, there were no Orthodox Jews at the time that the NT was written.
If that title is being misused to mean very religious Jews then again it is ridiculous. I have shown dozens of anti-Semitic slurs --attacks upon Jews who were deeply religious- in only two books of the NT (there's more where they came from). To become a Christian means to discard (at the instructions of Christ) most of the laws that the Jewish religion is based on. A very Un-orthodox thing to do, in fact it is abandoning the Jewish religion. If they abandoned Judaism then it is no more strange to think that they would ascribe to Hellenistic myths than it is that some modern Jews abandon their religion to become Hare Krishnians.
Whoever wrote the NT hated the Jews, whether they were Hellenists or disillusioned former Jews.
Whoever wrote it based it on Hellenistic myths. We still have the original myths, there is no denying that they are the same stories.
Whoever wrote it hated the Hellenists too, said they worshipped devils. You might just as well ask how could a Hellenist steal his own stories and then claim that the original versions of theses tales were lies, and his weren't?
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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