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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 10/03/2002 : 12:42:25 [Permalink]
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Erik Gustafson is a Gulf War Veteran if that's the only kind of people we care about hearing from:
http://www.progressive.org/pmpgj12.html
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2002 : 12:50:27 [Permalink]
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And of course, Howard Zinn is a WWII veteran. A veteran of a "good war." He was actually in combat with a dangerous foe. He didn't spend all his time in a kitchen.
http://www.progressive.org/Media%20Project%202/mpza1302.html
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2002 : 21:07:15 [Permalink]
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You know, while I don't always agree with @tomic, and he knows it, one thing we both agree on is that Bush is a dickweed. I can't wait for the chance to vote his ass out of the White House. And yes, I am embarrassed that this third rate hack is representing me and my country as President of the United States. Every time he opens his mouth I cringe. What I'm wondering is, does this mean I should consider Ireland an alternative to living here? Or do I get to think our president is an imbecile, and say so, without jeopardizing my integrity by not moving? Does my opinion count if I haven't served? (I was a political activist at one time. In fact, I was a member of the SDS. Clubbed more than once by the police. Does that count for anything?)
I do wish Bush would convince me that a unilateral military attack on Iraq is of the utmost importance at this time. Problem is, I don't trust the messenger. I'm not worried about some great conspiracy to do a dastardly thing. Saddam is a prick. Everyone is in agreement on this. What worries me is that Bush may have a hard-on for him and it has clouded what ever ability (limited) he has to reason things out.
I'm undecided.
The Evil Skeptic
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous. |
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welshdean
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
172 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2002 : 06:01:44 [Permalink]
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--Because you've been to exactly how many of these places? Oh you're an expert alright. Here's a ball, go play with the other kids somewhere.
this is why I say you should get the hell out.
Now we KNOW you have no combat experience.
Above texts are quotes from Solly's earlier postings on this thread.
Solly, forgive me for saying this, but i feel compelled to do so. GET OFF YOUR HIGH HORSE!!
Always the ad hominem attacks, why don't you attempt to debate the issue with atomic instead of shouting louder.
It's become quite apparant to most if not all of us that you are a tad gung ho, probably a life member of the NRA and quite possibly a grand wizard in the Klan.
Your inflammatory remarks are then later aimed at us Brits.... where the fuck do you get off by stating WE are the Robin to your Batman, don't be so ridiculous, YOU (the USA) have FOLLOWED the UK into Bosnia, the gulf, Somalia and the Balkans. Just aboutthe only places we haven't been first in or helped you amature soldiers out was Grenada and Vietnam, and the latter gave you a proper pasting. You have been brainwashed into thinking that you guys are the elite, well you aint.
Incidentally, the UK is head and shoulders above the rest of the world, we fine tuned the democratic model and when WE POPULATED THE US we took that model WITH US. So on democracy we are indeed neck and neck, what sets us above the USA are these 2 points.
1) We can count ballot papers.
2) Our high schools are not choc-a-block with automatic weapons and crack!!
We win, you're outta here!!!
I believe in nothing; only my scepticism kept me from being an atheist.
Edited by - welshdean on 10/04/2002 06:03:17
Edited by - welshdean on 10/04/2002 06:04:20
Edited by - welshdean on 10/04/2002 06:06:31 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2002 : 06:24:50 [Permalink]
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"On the Internet, a troll is a person who posts messages that create controversy or an angry response without adding content to the discussion, often intentionally." (from wikipedia)
This would mean people who call people "pussies" "nuts" and other such names and not really providing anything but noise and abuse.
I don't think labeling someone a troll helps anyone, though. I can remember being young and immature and angry and thinking that my anger (which is really fear) was something that other people would think was important, and that my fear was confidence. It's just a matter of experience and learning to get out of that. Some people never do, obviously, but many of us can if we try.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2002 : 08:33:03 [Permalink]
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I am embarrassed that this third rate hack is representing me and my country as President of the United States. Every time he opens his mouth I cringe. What I'm wondering is, does this mean I should consider Ireland an alternative to living here?
If you are embarrassed by any elected official then by all means campaign for and elect someone else. Get a new elected official.
Same goes for the country as a whole. If you are ashamed of it get yourself a new one.
Funny, in another thread I'm getting complaints about my being "left-wing."
I do wish Bush would convince me that a unilateral military attack on Iraq is of the utmost importance at this time. Problem is, I don't trust the messenger.
That would be the CIA and British Intelligence. For all the things you can say against Bush, and there are many, he is playing this one by the rule -book
I was a member of the SDS
I was a member of the O.N.I. There are some funny stories about the SDS around 1970 but I guess they shouldn't go on the internet.
WD Just about the only places we haven't been first in or helped you amature soldiers out was Grenada and Vietnam, and the latter gave you a proper pasting.
Oh but the English were in 'Nam. The reason we never took out any of the north's port cities is because there was a constant stream of English ships resupplying the Communists. Those of us on the ground thought that if the English were in the north then they were fair game. Washington wouldn't hear of it. So there's something else for you to boast about-your side won.
You have been brainwashed into thinking that you guys are the elite, well you aint.
This is the part where American's try very hard not to burst out laughing at the English stereotype. "How I won the war…"
Incidentally, the UK is head and shoulders above the rest of the world, we fine tuned the democratic model…
That reminds me, how's your QUEEN? Is your QUEEN doing well? And the rest of the ROYAL family, are they in good health? What about all those good folk in the House of LORDS, those DUKES and EARLS and all of NOBELITY, are they feeling okay? That's some fine tuning you guys have done to Democracy 
and when WE POPULATED THE US we took that model WITH US.
When I was going to school in Cork and in New York they were teaching a somewhat different story about how the English behaved in America. [sarcasm] We do owe you guy's our Bill of Rights though. Without the "civilized" behavior of the English we would have never felt the need to spell them out [/sarcasm].
So on democracy we are indeed neck and neck…
Is the Queen still the head of the Church of England?
what sets us above the USA are these 2 points.
1) We can count ballot papers.
Except in Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland where they oft times lack the ballot papers to actually count.
2) Our high schools are not choc-a-block with automatic weapons and crack!!
So you're not writing this from Protestant Belfast or Derry, I take it.
We win, you're outta here!!!
There, there. Be good little boys and we'll buy you some sweets.
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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The SollyLama
Skeptic Friend
USA
234 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2002 : 17:11:23 [Permalink]
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Don't get me wrong, I dig you Brits. I've worked with the SAS several times and they were some hardcore dudes. I'm also a big fan of the Harrier. I'm not bashing them at all. You'll notice that I admitted that US HUMINT in the middle east sucks compared to the Brits. I for one am glad to have the UK on our side.
quote:
Solly, forgive me for saying this, but i feel compelled to do so. GET OFF YOUR HIGH HORSE!!
--I do indeed consider myself above the chicken little conspiracy believers. And I consider myself an expert in military affairs, having first hand experience for more than a decade. You can get a PHD in less time. I worked in Joint operations with other militaries and was primarily in intelligence and counter-intelligence. I know of which I speak. I never said I was nice.
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Always the ad hominem attacks, why don't you attempt to debate the issue with atomic instead of shouting louder
--I did. Quite simply- show me some proof of this evil plotting, the NWO push, the genocide he claims I've perpetrated. Name a country we've conquered, show me where the average Afghani (for example) pays any tribute to the US.
According to the chicken littles, every place the US has an interest is somewhere we've conquered.
Like I said, that argument will hold water when we invade and topple a peaceful or democratic nation. Enforcing UN resolutions and cease fire agreements on war criminals is a worthy cause. We stopped Milosevic, who was indicted for far less than Saddam has done.
And Ad Homimen? First, yes, I'm going to get pissed when accused of being part in enslaving the planet, as the conspiracy goes. Pissed more when someone who claims to be oh-so-concerned for the world's population, yet have never done anything of thier own to help. Talk talk talk. But the big bad Solly actually HAS done something to feed and help people. I (along with the fed and military) stand accused of atrocities, yet I've done more in a day to help and defend these folks than the accusers have ever done. So yeah, I get frustrated. I'm also not a debate club geek. I call it like I see it whether that violates some debater rule or not. Reality isn't always pretty or eloquent.
quote:
It's become quite apparant to most if not all of us that you are a tad gung ho, probably a life member of the NRA and quite possibly a grand wizard in the Klan
--Oh, no personal attack here, huh? To be chastised for doing exactly what you do a few lines later.....
Gung Ho- yes. Be thankful I was since you weren't. Someone has to keep whining liberals safe.
LifeTime NRA Member- Not a member since the Brady Bill was passed. They need to stop worrying about celebrity chairmen and get back to work.
Klan member- Yeah, again, stupidity unveiled. Hey, exactly how many minorities have YOU lived with, shared a sandbag position under fire with? I'll wager I've spent more time with and been closer to more races and nationalities than you can name. Comes back down to talking the talk and walking the walk. By comparison, I'd bet you come across as far more prejudicial than me.
No, my prejudice is against people to whom their freedom is like welfare- OWED to them. Don't earn it, then still find a way to bitch about it.
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And yes, I am embarrassed that this third rate hack is representing me and my country as President of the United States
--Third rate enough to be the leader of the free world. And what is it that YOU do? Jealousy that when he speaks the world listens and all you amount to is posts on an obscure BBS. You know, I didn't like Clinton, but I never thought him dumb. He was smart and powerful enough to become president.
quote:
I do wish Bush would convince me that a unilateral military attack on Iraq is of the utmost importance at this time
--And I say that much like the moon hoax believers, no amount of evidence will convince you anyway. The evidence is pretty obvious- Saddams history, his actions thoughout the entire 90's, and the opinion of hundreds of analysts that advised Bush.
That's all the evidence you're entitled to. You do not qualify to see the intelligence that supports that conclusion. Oh well.
And just what unilateralism are you talking about? Or did you miss the 10 months since Bush declared Iraq an Axis of Evil? The reason we're even having this debate is because if we were unilateralist, we'd have already smoked that maniac and restored freedom to Iraq. With the UK on our side, as well as other places, we're hardly unilateral.
But this was another topic in another thread. I said originally that we should dissolve the UN. It's a hollow doll. It's power and legitimacy are a facade. It has been every bit as effective as The League of Nations. So I say it should go the way of the LON.
Bleed for me, I've bled for you. Embrace me child, I'll see you through. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2002 : 18:10:17 [Permalink]
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Noise noise noise. Like I said, by definition, everything the U.S. does has Jesus on its side. By definition. Even if they do overthrow a democratic, peaceful government, of course they were really "communist" and evil. Now that's a real conspiracy theory.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2002 : 20:07:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Third rate enough to be the leader of the free world. And what is it that YOU do? Jealousy that when he speaks the world listens and all you amount to is posts on an obscure BBS.
This goes on record as the funniest response to anything I have ever posted on these boards. Solly, keep it up. You're one of a kind, I hope.....
Jealously yours,
The Evil Skeptic
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous. |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2002 : 23:16:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
No, my prejudice is against people to whom their freedom is like welfare- OWED to them. Don't earn it, then still find a way to bitch about it.
Let me say first that despite what you may think, I believe we have more in common, Solly, than not.
That said, you repeatedly seem to indicate that freedom and human rights are something that one must earn, and that people who don't "work for it" don't deserve freedom. I hope I'm wrong, but that's the impression I get.
Maybe this is a topic for its own thread, but that is troubling to me. As rational beings, we recognize that by simply existing as humans, we deserve certain rights. Our rights are in no way dependent upon our actions as law-abiding citizens. (Please note my qualification of "law-abiding"). I believe that those rights are very well laid out in the Bill of Rights.
I respect your knowledge and experience in wordly affairs, but I certainly don't think that because of your experiences, that you are more deserving of any human rights than anyone else (again, "law-abiding" is an important qualification here).
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2002 : 02:57:48 [Permalink]
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Post to an obscure BBS is all we've seen Solly do, and he hasn't contributed a thing. What has he added to these boards except to show that he has not respect for himself or others?
For all he's given us, we can't know if he ever left the county he was born in.
quote:
And what is it that YOU do? Jealousy that when he speaks the world listens and all you amount to is posts on an obscure BBS.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn
Edited by - gorgo on 10/05/2002 02:59:57
Edited by - gorgo on 10/05/2002 03:01:07 |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2002 : 05:51:23 [Permalink]
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I don't think that anyone has the impression that the U.N. wields any real power. What the U.N. does give us is a forum to express and debate individual national interests. If nothing else, this is a place we can begin to solve the problems facing our planet. Even Baby Bush conceded as much when he brought his Iraq arguments before the Security Council.
That said, I will concede that Mr. Bush the Younger could care less if the U.N. supports his intentions concerning the Middle East. His U.N. speech was directed mainly toward the American people. This fear of world terrorism and despotic leaders is the one area in which Mr. Bush and his religious and corporate cronies can keep the majority of Americans in their corner.
Let's face it, the market's gone south. Most of our 401K's are starting to look little better than junk bonds, (and may be). The president and many members of the legislature want to take away the rest of our retirement funds by putting the control of Social Security into the same hands that audit corporations like Enron, Halliburton and WorldCom. Furthermore, it's getting harder to draw lines between corporate ethics and criminal behavior. Environmental issues continue to take a backseat to profits. Calls for smaller and less intrusive gov't have turned into bigger and more intrusive gov't. And, promises for campaign reform following the Florida election debacle have been buried under a blanket of fear inspired nationalism and the words “under God.” This at a time when even the lowly liberal democrats think they can change the election rules in the middle of the game in New Jersey.
The president has to keep the focus on war. Unless he can make some appeal to patriotism, he cannot win the national debate, and he is not far from caring. At this moment, the GOP is pouring millions of dollars into the coffers of the elections of certain Senatorial races they think they can win to acquire a majority in the Senate. Once this happens we are left with a rubber stamp Legislature dedicated to stacking an already conservative Judiciary with God fearing Christians that could give a good hallelujah about our Constitution. We will see a Legislature that will attempt to turn the machinations of Attorney General John Ashcroft into real laws investing more power into the realm of our Fed, and at the cost of the individual. We will see the Christian Right finally begin to make real and permanent inroads into controlling the education of our youth. We will see further deregulation of business and banking practices, and tax cuts that will save the middle class pennies and the wealthy millions, while putting more mentally and emotionally handicapped people out on the streets.
Understand that I have no more respect for the Democratic leadership than I do the Republican. I just feel that in a two party system, one party holding all the cards is not a very good plan for long term stability. And, I find it repulsive that so many people use disaster and appeals to patriotism to achieve their goals for political and religious domination.
Well, that's just my opinion, for what it's worth. I had to rant a little off subject, but never the less, the U.N. may be ineffective as a tool for actively solving real world problems, but it can and does serve a worthy purpose.
"Many of those people involved with Adolph Hitler were Satanists, many of them were homosexuals--the two things seem to go together."--Pat Robertson, "The 700 Club," 1/21/93 |
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Kilted_Warrior
Skeptic Friend
Canada
118 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2002 : 22:10:27 [Permalink]
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Oh my proverbial god...
You all have turned an intelligent conversation about the effects of the UN into a "My country is way better than your country!" fight. I would have thought better of you all.
As i believe Tim said before, the UN is great as a forum for problems to be resolved. It also does alot of work.
I know because my English teacher was a Brigadier General of the Candian Armed Forces serving in Bosnia. He saw firsthand how much the UN forces helped the people living there, and how greatful they all were, for if the UN had not come in to stop the genocide, they would all have been dead. There are still millions ore even tens of millions of landmines still waiting for someone to step on them, and Canada is one of the largest clearers in that operation. At the maximum rate that we can detect, designate, and destroy the UXO, we will be well into the second half of the 21st century.
Talk to any one of the people who live there, they won't think the UN is the big waste of time and money you people see it as.
PS. Slater, you insulted my Queen, and you insulted me. At least with the Queen, we can't make as many complaints as you do as your head of state, because she is doing a good job of it.
Either Peace or War- Motto of Clan Gunn of Scotland |
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