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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
 Posted - 10/07/2002 : 07:40:41
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A good article by an active duty Marine:
http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/breaking_2.html
quote:
Where was Sun Tzu's press corps? My best guest was in the grave. I'm sure he considered them to be enemy spies.
I'm with Gunnery Sergeant Howard, how about you?
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 10/07/2002 : 08:25:44 [Permalink]
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I think if "we" are really at war, then it does no good for Gunnery Sergeants to act like free speech is the end of the world.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2002 : 12:10:18 [Permalink]
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OK, we should certainly encourage members of Congress to air their criticisms in a more constructive manner, but what's this nonsense about criminalization? Does this guy think all wartime free speech issues are so cut-and-dried? Once we start talking about arresting people for openly disagreeing, we subject ourselves to arbitrary and capricious notions, engendered by the group in power, of what constitutes arrestable speech. No thanks.
Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.
-D. Hume |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2002 : 13:49:52 [Permalink]
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Does this guy think all wartime free speech issues are so cut-and-dried?
The Sgt. is talking about exactly the same thing that all the GIs on this board are. Showing responsibility for your own actions. It's like that old Supreme Court chestnut. "freedom of speech does not include shouting FIRE in a crowded theater."
Loose or seditious talk from the Senators he mentions could very well mean the Sgt will be coming home in a bag.
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2002 : 14:00:45 [Permalink]
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Sometimes responsibility and sedition are the same thing.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2002 : 14:27:46 [Permalink]
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Pick a column between the fourth and sixth.
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2002 : 14:54:07 [Permalink]
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Whatever. I don't know about the proper behavior of military people, but private citizens have the right to speak their mind. The Senator in question was asked a quesion by U.S. reporters in a room full of U.S. citizens. He answered it. This is still the U.S.A.
As far as sedition being a good idea, refusal to cooperate with criminal behavior is generally a good idea.
quote:
Pick a column between the fourth and sixth.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn
Edited by - gorgo on 10/07/2002 14:54:38 |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2002 : 15:06:05 [Permalink]
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The proper behavior is to consider the consequences of your speech.
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2002 : 15:15:31 [Permalink]
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Interesting, he mentioned publicly criticizing the President as wrong? No, he is flat out wrong. It may be a matter of duty for them to criticize the President so that he might not go fight some war he has no business fighting and coming home in a body bag courtesy of George W and the big oil interests. Free speech does not mean the press secretary can say what he wants uncontested and we all just accept it as truth. And when the White House leaks information on purpose to see what the reaction is and then blames Congess in that little game they play is that less wrong? What the hell? Excuse me while I barf. Freedom of speech is not freedom of speech for those that agree with you. I find it fascinating that this marine is so eager to go fight for oil and die for it but bitches about Americans exercising the freedoms he is being led to believe he is defending. Anyone that just wants to fight war for the sake of it and hopes all freedom loving Americans will just shut up so the President gets what he wants even if he is 100% wrong does not have my sympathy. He says the President should be treated with respect. I say he has yet to earn that respect in any regard.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2002 : 15:29:21 [Permalink]
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Absolutely, and speech that condones criminal behavior and tells other people to shut up and accept it is not very responsible. He's playing into the hands of those that would like to see the U.S. become a dictatorship.
Again, it's not very responsible to act like the world is coming to an end because people speak their mind.
quote:
The proper behavior is to consider the consequences of your speech.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2002 : 17:07:25 [Permalink]
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Interesting, he mentioned publicly criticizing the President as wrong?
He said that in time of war our country's government should present a united front to the enemy.
It may be a matter of duty for them to criticize the President so that he might not go fight some war he has no business fighting and coming home in a body bag courtesy of George W and the big oil interests.
Odd how somebody that owns a skeptic site is such a believer in conspiracy theories and completely forgets about real life threats.
Free speech does not mean the press secretary can say what he wants uncontested and we all just accept it as truth.
The first night of the Gulf War there was a CNN live broadcast from Israel. The anchor woman was telling how a scud had just crashed five blocks north of their studio and how a second had just flown over head and landed half a mile away. A few minutes later a man walked on camera and told her that the army said she had to stop. She was furious and started in about her rights. The man interrupted her again to tell her that she was instructing the Iraqis where to aim.
In a war sometimes the best thing to do is to keep your trap shut.
And when the White House leaks information on purpose to see what the reaction is and then blames Congess in that little game they play is that less wrong?
This is a Senator that was being talked about.
Freedom of speech is not freedom of speech for those that agree with you.
Because you have freedoms it does not mean that you don't have responsibilities also.
I find it fascinating that this marine is so eager to go fight for oil and die for it strawman but bitches about Americans exercising the freedoms he is being led to believe he is defending.
A Senator does not have the right to endanger US troops because he wants to shoot his yap off in the papers.
Anyone that just wants to fight war for the sake of it gargantuan strawman and hopes all freedom loving Americans will just shut up so the President gets what he wants even if he is 100% wrong does not have my sympathy.
You don't seem to have a clue what Sergeant Howard said. You are responding to your own personal bug-a-boos and not to the issues in his article.
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2002 : 19:49:38 [Permalink]
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Slater, I pretty much agree that we should make every effort to present a unified front when the situation warrants. But you're not going to get anything resembling a consensus that we should attack Iraq right now. Senators should know better. There's nothing to be gained by that kind of criticism. The place for that is in the US, in the legislature, where one has a say in what kind of wartime activities we engage in. If it can be shown that they have done something traitorous, then throw the book at them. If Congress isn't happy about their actions, censure them. But jailing a senator for disagreeing with the president is outrageous.
Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.
-D. Hume |
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2002 : 21:02:51 [Permalink]
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ahem *Brief Interruption*
If for some wild crazy-assed reason I should be recalled to active duty, and any board members happen to know where I am and what mission I'm supporting, do you think you could keep your soup holes shut til I'm back in one piece?
I realize this could take some restraint. Shouting information to the whole freakin' world is a lot more fun than being measured for a body bag.
We have enough youth. We need a fountain of smart. |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2002 : 22:17:20 [Permalink]
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Lisa, that's not the sort of thing I am talking about. I do believe that there are times when restraint should be used but when that rationale is abused and everything should be covered up, often to protect wrongdoing in the name of patriotism, I have to be a little bit pissed off. I listened to the President give a speech and lie right to the American people. He said, "I won't gamble with American lives." Hey guess, what? When you make up a threat out of stretches of the imagination and send troops to die guess what you just did? That's right! You just gambled with American lives. he also claimed we "know" what weapons Saddam has but we are stil waiting for real evidence. I will not be part of a united front if that united front is prepared to make a huge mistake and commit wrongful acts with the Amrican flag flying proudly overhead. That's what being an American is all about.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2002 : 03:04:29 [Permalink]
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Atomic, you watched the president last night. I only caught a few sound bites in my work truck. Who is this coalition that he was talking about leading into Isaq? Any body besides G.B.? Or is this more smoke?
"Many of those people involved with Adolph Hitler were Satanists, many of them were homosexuals--the two things seem to go together."--Pat Robertson, "The 700 Club," 1/21/93 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2002 : 03:09:23 [Permalink]
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Here's a transcript. To summarize what Dianne Feinstein said, Bush is lying and exaggerating, but we should support him because Saddam may be a threat to someone some day.
http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/10/07/bush.transcript/index.html
Bush said that Iraq may have trained some al Qaeda members in chemical weapons and that there may be al Qaeda members in Iraq. Guess what, the U.S. trained Al-Qaeda members in flying jets, and there may be some Al-Qaeda members in the U.S.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn
Edited by - gorgo on 10/08/2002 03:10:40 |
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