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Hobbes
New Member
USA
34 Posts |
 Posted - 10/31/2002 : 08:16:49
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Hey folks, just came to rant a bit, so don't mind me. I don't understand why people feel the need for religion. I know the standard arguments: It promises reward in the next life, it's a moral guide, blah blah.... Why? Why do people waste time, life, and money over the belief in something they can't even prove. The attacks on Sept. 11 happened because those fools were deluded into the belief that they would be rewarded. Rewarded for slaughtering three thousand people. Not infadels, not heretics, not soldiers. Civilians, innocent people.
Somebody help me understand. Is there some basic human need to worship something higher than one's self? I worship no god, but I am a student of science, and I believe there is no higher goal than the advancement of knowledge.
Unfortunately, I owe a great deal of my moral viewpoint to a religious upbringing, but we are raising our daughter without any special emphasis on religion, and she's coming along just fine.
So somebody enlighten me, please.
And Newton said, "y'= lim h->0 of [f(x+h)-f(x)]/[(x+h)-x], thus, Calculus was born, and Newton saw that it was good.
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
 Posted - 10/31/2002 : 10:58:33 [Permalink]
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It's worth noting that I was a psych major, so that's the basis for my opinions. Thus, the human brain in my view is a very complex patterning machine. In large part, the patterns themselves are subconsciously controlled, with conscious inputs needed to add missing information. In order to maintain the patterns, the brain often extrapolates from existing information. My speculation is that personal religion is a 'mental bridge' between the reality of existence and the existentiality of consciousness. However, as Slater has oft argued, religion can be effectively used as a form of social control; this seems to be a purposeful scheme to take advantage of humans' natural tendency toward religion.
Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.
-D. Hume |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2002 : 12:07:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
PhDreamer wrote:
It's worth noting that I was a psych major, ... Thus, the human brain in my view is a very complex patterning machine.
Thus?  I'll bet it's a very complex pattern matching machine in any event.
You might enjoy reading The Biological Basis of Morality by Edward O. Wilson. Much of the discussion on religion is in part 2.
Edited by - ReasonableDoubt on 10/31/2002 12:21:52 |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2002 : 21:06:49 [Permalink]
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My rationale is based on numerous studies that show how the brain extrapolates, or sometimes flatly invents information in order to complete a pattern. It's a significant part of vision, for one thing, which is easily shown by our lack of true photographic memory.
Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.
-D. Hume |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2002 : 21:21:42 [Permalink]
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Somebody help me understand. Is there some basic human need to worship something higher than one's self?
I would say yes, but even more basic than a human need. You can see it more clearly in the other primates than in humans because they have covered it with less artifice than we have. Take our cousin the gorilla, their society is a simpler version of our own. It is based on the Silverback.
The Silverback is the dominant male, the Alpha. All the gorillas in a troop are subservient to him. He's the biggest. He gets preferential sex. He gets the first pick of the food. He's gets the most social grooming.
The others bow to his wishes. They do so because they love him and they need him and not because they are bullied into it. The desire to be subservient to him is built into the other gorillas. It is a purely Darwinian adaptation of social order which insures the survival of the group. Because the job of the Silverback is to die so that the others might live. When danger threatens the troop runs and he stays to face it. He will stop it if he can but if he can't he will slow it up long enough for the rest to escape. If that means he must die, he will do so.
Our (human) whole social structure is an extension of the gorilla's. Every group function of humans involves a Silverback. He's the Emperor, or the office supervisor, the coach, the foreman. Every time we humans do something in a group we have to have a leader. Anarchy is seen to be a terrible thing.
These leaders get to boss us around because we let them. We not only let them, we want them to. We are primates and that is how we evolved, we want…we need the Alpha-the hero.
This gorilla-like tendency is what fuels religion.
Look at Jesus. He is better than we are. He is stronger, smarter. His will be done, not ours. He saved us. He died for our weakness. All he wants is that we love him and obey him. This all comes straight from the tropical rain forest. Jesus is the Silverback. We, being a species of great ape, cannot help but feel a need for the protection and love of the Alpha.
Unless, of course, we happen to be Alphas ourselves…
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled
Edited by - slater on 10/31/2002 21:34:52 |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2002 : 22:28:15 [Permalink]
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I agree partly with slater but I think there is a human need to explain things and I also agree with PHDreamer because I think people tried to explain basic patterns they saw as best they could. Some exploited this(slater) and developed the ideas to explain.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2002 : 06:31:21 [Permalink]
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We certainly have the ABILITY to "bridge" but that doesn't force us in any way to "bridge." We also have the ability to say that we don't know the answers. The difference seems to me to be that we think we NEED to have certain answers.
Pin a theist down and they'll tell you that they think life isn't worth living unless blah blah blah. That's the key. They don't think THEIR life is worth anything unless they make something up to give it worth. It's about self-worth. NOT this confused idea of false self-esteem that psychologists are arguing about now where for example, someone thinks they're great at math, but they're really lousy at math. That's not a feeling of self-worth, that's a need to create a false image in order to give oneself a false sense of self-worth.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Mespo_man
Skeptic Friend
USA
312 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2002 : 09:39:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
I agree partly with slater but I think there is a human need to explain things and I also agree with PHDreamer because I think people tried to explain basic patterns they saw as best they could. Some exploited this(slater) and developed the ideas to explain.
[@tomic]
I know this is an over-simplification, but the jist of it is...
In science, "I don't know" is an acceptable answer. In religion, it is not.
(:raig
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2002 : 10:05:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
We certainly have the ABILITY to "bridge" but that doesn't force us in any way to "bridge." We also have the ability to say that we don't know the answers. The difference seems to me to be that we think we NEED to have certain answers.
Pin a theist down and they'll tell you that they think life isn't worth living unless blah blah blah. That's the key. They don't think THEIR life is worth anything unless they make something up to give it worth. It's about self-worth. NOT this confused idea of false self-esteem that psychologists are arguing about now where for example, someone thinks they're great at math, but they're really lousy at math. That's not a feeling of self-worth, that's a need to create a false image in order to give oneself a false sense of self-worth.
I agree in principle, but I think you might have it backwards. My suspicion is that the subconscious pattern-completing is temporally prior to the conscious justification, "self-esteem." I've got no real evidence for this, but I was greatly influenced by one of my professors who was a proponent of the intellect-slave-to-emotion theory of the brain.
Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.
-D. Hume |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2002 : 10:07:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
I know this is an over-simplification, but the jist of it is...
In science, "I don't know" is an acceptable answer. In religion, it is not.
Oh, the religious say "I don't know" all the time. They just pronounce it "God works in mysterious ways."
Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.
-D. Hume |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2002 : 10:45:49 [Permalink]
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Can't argue which came first, only that we are not slaves to whatever it is, obviously. Interesting at least.
quote:
I agree in principle, but I think you might have it backwards. [/quote]
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2002 : 11:19:15 [Permalink]
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All good points. However, an important point here is that Jesus is Super human. Human abilities are not enough. We have to invent superhumans to show us that we're not good enough. Science is not enough, we have to have "alternative science." Translation, reality is not a good thing, humans are not worthy, not capable of dealing with reality.
quote:
Look at Jesus. He is better than we are. He is stronger, smarter.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Mespo_man
Skeptic Friend
USA
312 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2002 : 13:23:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
Oh, the religious say "I don't know" all the time. They just pronounce it "God works in mysterious ways."[PhDreamer]
But they don't stop there, do they? They go on pontificating ad nauseum about God's mysterious ways. Sermons, pamphlets, video and audio cassettes. A whole industry devoted to insuring that you'll never know because HE does so YOU won't.
DAMN. I'm in the wrong business. I find answers as part of my job and get paid diddly.
(:raig
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2002 : 13:31:46 [Permalink]
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… I think there is a human need to explain things and I also agree with PHDreamer because I think people tried to explain basic patterns they saw as best they could.
That gets us back to basic primate needs, á la Curious George.
But does religion really supply any answers at all? Like when you ask 'why did lightening burn down my hovel,' or 'why do zebras have stripes?' You get answers along the lines of 'it is the will of Jupiter, better make a sacrifice at the temple,' or ' Zebras show the glory of God. Now about that faith offering…"
Instead of answers being supplied to your questions you get a road block and a reminder to keep your (lowly) place (within the troop).
Far from supplying answers religion lets you know that you aren't good enough to even ask the questions. Asking questions is a challenge, of sorts, to the Silverback.
Look at how Darwin is viewed. His assertion that he has found rather simple answers to age-old questions is seen as a direct challenge to the Silverback. If you listen to him all the order and the security that the Silverback offers will be suddenly gone. The fact that they can observe that that doesn't actually happen doesn't calm their fears that it would.
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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Kilted_Warrior
Skeptic Friend
Canada
118 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2002 : 22:19:19 [Permalink]
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I think it may be because we need some part of control in our lives, whether it is real or a delusion. If something bad happens, we can pray to God that it won't happen again, or there is some sort of a tragedy we are supposed to pray for the survivors, or as our ancestors made sacrifices to please the gods, it gave them control. Science tells us that we have absolutly no control, for we are just a dot on a spec on in a pinprick of light that is our galaxy, in an insignifigant cloud.
Makes you feel kind of worthless, doesn't it?
That is what religion does, it shows us that if we can't change something, we can ask the Big Guy(or Girl or People) to do it for us.
Ubi dubium ibi libertas: Where there is doubt, there is freedom. (Latin Proverb) |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2002 : 23:43:22 [Permalink]
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This view is backwards from the one I see at work in the world.
With religion it is never "my will be done' but always "Thy will be done." Thy being the invisible sky god.
Benjamin Franklin was called a devil from pulpits from one end of the thirteen colonies to the other. Not for his religion, but because he invented the lightening rod. A simple metal rod that stuck up from the top of your roof and was attached to the ground by a heavy copper cable. Ben Franklin circumvented the wrath of god. He put himself and his house above the punishment of the Almighty.
With science you can fly, you can go to the bottom of the ocean or to the moon. Your life span is doubled. You can talk to me while I'm thousands of miles away from you.
With religion you relinquish control of your life. As one of the great apes that is a pretty comfortable thing to do. Let the Silverback take care of all the mess stuff, he's better than you are anyway. It's in your genes.
Science forces you to take personal responsibility, and gives you the tools to do it. Science tells you that you aren't in the rain forest anymore, that the world has changed and you can change with it. Science teaches that the individual has personal worth and value. Religion teaches humility and subservience.
I remember the last Roman Catholic high mass I attended. The bishop was dressed in white stain embroidered robes and carried a crook made of gold. He climbed up the stairs to the gilded pulpit in St Patrick's Cathedral in Manhattan, in front of the carved alabaster alter and lectured us--his voice echoing from the loud speakers in the vaulted ceiling--on how important it was for us to be humble.
Religion gives you no control. Follow their rules or it's the pit of Hell for you boy-o. The Protestants have it even worse, they aren't judged by St Pete on their behavior. It doesn't matter what they do, they are judged by god's whims and not their own actions. Their own deeds are futility itself. Were I one of the 200 Cross River Gorillas left in this world I would find such a situation comforting. But as a modern human living at the end of thousands of years of civilization--who is something of an Alpha himself--I say 'no thank you.' About 10 years ago I had cancer, I did not get on my knees and plead to the sky Silverback for help. I took matters into my own hands, turned to science, and fought it myself. Thanks to science I won. There's nothing worthless about me.
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled
Edited by - slater on 11/02/2002 23:46:36 |
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