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Legallee Insane
Skeptic Friend
Canada
126 Posts |
 Posted - 11/27/2002 : 23:01:34
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Tell me now, has anyone considered that, I mean strongly considered that. I once saw a documentary on the life of Stephen Hawking, in which he talked about his conversations with the Pope.
The Pope said that to inquire into the big bang and its ensuing effects was fine, but not to inquire into the cause of the big bang.
Maybe creationism and evolution are exactly the same thing. Perhaps a higher power created the big bang and then sat back and watched the events as they happend. Perhaps people take the creationism theory too literally when in the Bible it accounts for the world being created in 7 days. Perhaps those 7 days the Bible speaks of is more a metaphor for the evolution of the world and how it came to be over a long period of time.
I believe these oh so contradictory theories just might be one and the same... but I'm open to suggestions
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--"Only the fool says in his heart: There is no god -- The wise says it to the world"
--"I darn you to HECK!" - Catbert
--"Don't worry, we're not laughing at you, we're laughing near you." |
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Espritch
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
 Posted - 11/27/2002 : 23:15:28 [Permalink]
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My hypothesis is that there was a mommy universe and a dady universe and they boinked until our bouncing baby universe popped out of the mommy universe's birth canal (the big bang). So in my version, the big bang was preceded by the big boink. This hypothesis is just as untestable and unprovable as yours and has the added advantage of giving me an excuse to use the word "boink".  |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 11/27/2002 : 23:17:19 [Permalink]
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The problem with this is that while you can observe evolution and it's effects there aren't any gods.
The real world is not a combination of facts and fiction.
Gods exist only in your imagination. |
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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Legallee Insane
Skeptic Friend
Canada
126 Posts |
Posted - 11/27/2002 : 23:25:29 [Permalink]
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| I would like to know, Slater, what exactly proves that there is no god. Can you offer me concrete evidence that there is not god, besides your typical ranting and raving about how it is impossible and makes no sense and that you've never had any experience to tell you there is a god. Let's face it, I guess the fact is that we can't really prove that there is a god, but we can't prove there isn't either. |
--"Only the fool says in his heart: There is no god -- The wise says it to the world"
--"I darn you to HECK!" - Catbert
--"Don't worry, we're not laughing at you, we're laughing near you." |
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Antie
Skeptic Friend
USA
101 Posts |
Posted - 11/27/2002 : 23:42:51 [Permalink]
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> Let's face it, I guess the fact is that we can't really prove that
> there is a god, but we can't prove there isn't either.
In that case, there is no way to claim truthfully that a deity really exists. |
Antie. DIES GAUDII.
Facies Fabulosarum Feminarum
If you can name all six of the females in the picture above without looking up their names, and you can read the Latin phrase, pat yourself on the back. You're smart. |
| Edited by - Antie on 11/27/2002 23:45:48 |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 11/27/2002 : 23:48:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Maybe creationism and evolution are exactly the same thing. Perhaps a higher power created the big bang and then sat back and watched the events as they happend. Perhaps people take the creationism theory too literally when in the Bible it accounts for the world being created in 7 days. Perhaps those 7 days the Bible speaks of is more a metaphor for the evolution of the world and how it came to be over a long period of time.
Who knows? I know I don't. I know you don't.
@tomic
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Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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welshdean
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
172 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2002 : 01:36:49 [Permalink]
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| excellent use of the word boink, my hat is tipped in your direction sir! |
"Frazier is so ugly he should donate his face to the US Bureau of Wild Life."
"I am America. I am the part you won't recognize, but get used to me. Black, confident, cocky. My name, not yours. My religion, not yours. My goals, my own. Get used to me."
"Service to others is the rent you pay for your room here on earth."
---- Muhammad Ali
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2002 : 03:51:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
I would like to know, Slater, what exactly proves that there is no god. Can you offer me concrete evidence that there is not god, besides your typical ranting and raving about how it is impossible and makes no sense and that you've never had any experience to tell you there is a god. Let's face it, I guess the fact is that we can't really prove that there is a god, but we can't prove there isn't either.
Sorry Leaglee, but you can't prove a negitive. And the burden of proof in upon the claiment. For example, if I say, "God is a pink unicorn!" I'd better be able to produce at least some solid evidence, if not the unicorn it's self. Otherwise, the Skeptics might start having a lot of fun with me. We hear many claims about God, but no evidence save the writings on an ancient and superstitious people. These writings are further suspect due to being revised and edited for almost 2000 years.
As for the BB, nobody knows. Perhaps we'll never know, for sure. But, I rather doubt that godidit will be the answer.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2002 : 04:49:37 [Permalink]
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| No one has a need for god(s) any more than they have a need for heroin. They may think they want it, but it does them no good, and avoiding reality on a regular basis usually isn't a healthy thing. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Kilted_Warrior
Skeptic Friend
Canada
118 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2002 : 10:44:05 [Permalink]
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Kevin, the going theory in cosmology now is that the universe was created from the universe before it. Say that this is the cycle.
Universe begins
Universe gets big
universe contracts
THE BIG CRUNCH
Universe begins
and so on and so on for ever.
Ms. O is a cow |
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Terryt88
Skeptic Friend
USA
120 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2002 : 11:37:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
Kevin, the going theory in cosmology now is that the universe was created from the universe before it. Say that this is the cycle.
Universe begins
Universe gets big
universe contracts
THE BIG CRUNCH
Universe begins
Speaking of Steven Hawking, in his book "A Brief History of Time," he speaks of three models that obey Friedmann's assumptions.
One where gravity eventually creates the Big Crunch.
A Second where the universe expands just enough to keep expanding and never reachs zero.
And a third where the universe is expanding rapidly.
I also rememebr some guest speaker that came to my university to give a lecture, and for some reason I want to say he lectured about how the universe may be contracting. Boron, do you remember anything about that?
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2002 : 12:17:29 [Permalink]
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Sorry, Legallee, it didn't occur to me that you were a kid.
I don't have to prove that there is no God. I'm not dealing with any gods. Just look around you. No gods in your room, none hiding under the bed.
What I am dealing with is your claim that there is a god. Because that's all we have to suggest that there is a god, you saying so.
But you said "I guess the fact is that we can't really prove that there is a god, but we can't prove there isn't either."
That means that you are making a claim that you don't know for sure is the truth.
Let's make this same claim about another topic, to take some of the glamour of god off it. I ask you, "Is there any baloney in the refrigerator." You reply, "Yes, there is. And it's delicious."
But…and this is a very big BUT…you didn't look in the fridge. You want there to be baloney, because you really want a snack. You can picture there being baloney in your minds eye. But you don't really know if there is baloney or not.
When you tell me 'Yes there is' you are lying to me.
There might very well actually be baloney in the fridge. If there is you are still lying to me because you are giving me information that you don't actually posses. That you have no way of posessing.
You claim there is a god while at the same time stating that you cannot prove that there is one. That means that you are telling me that something is a fact when you don't know is. You are admitting that you are lying to me.
And to yourself.
I can say that there is no god based on my observations, and based on the fact that you admit your claim of gods existence is a lie. Since we have nothing to even suggest a god exists, except your claim, that wraps the subject up.
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2002 : 12:21:31 [Permalink]
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The Big Crunch, or yoyo universe, is only possible if there is enough mass in the universe to slow its expansion down and eventually reverse it.
There isn't. In fact its been found that the expansion is speeding up. Once this universe is over, it's over. No resurections for us. |
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2002 : 13:03:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Slater
In fact its been found that the expansion is speeding up.
I still have a hard time with this one. What is pulling/pushing the universe apart to cause its expansion to actually accelerate? Perhaps I am misunderstanding basic Physics, but how is this possible? |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2002 : 15:13:14 [Permalink]
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No, you just aren't thinking about it on a large enough scale. The same force (the explosion of the BB) is pushing on the universe. It remains a constant. The component parts are getting further away from one another, the gravitational pull they exert on each other lessens as the distance between increases.
Constant force + decreasing resistance to the force = acceleration
It's not as counter intuitive as it seems at first. Park your car on a hill and it wants to roll to the bottom because of it's weight. Your brake resists this force and it rolls slowly. As you progress down the hill you let up on the pedal and the car rolls faster even though the weight remains exactly the same.
Substitute the universe for your car, the motive force of the BB for the weight of your car, and gravity for your brake and you have the expansion of the universe accelerating.
But one thing to consider is that TIME is a side effect of motion. The faster the universe goes the slower time. So the universe might end because time stops if it goes fast enough.
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
| Edited by - Slater on 11/28/2002 15:15:11 |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2002 : 18:58:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Slater
The Big Crunch, or yoyo universe, is only possible if there is enough mass in the universe to slow its expansion down and eventually reverse it.
There isn't. In fact its been found that the expansion is speeding up. Once this universe is over, it's over. No resurections for us.
Not so fast there, cowboy! 
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2002/09/020917070128.htm |
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