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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
 Posted - 01/21/2003 : 19:08:46 [Permalink]
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LI: quote:
Though I don't believe in predetermination by any stretch of the imagination, perhaps it is conceivable that it would be
much like any problem you might try to solve during your typical day at work or school or any thing like that. There are
multiple ways that you could go about solving the problem that will all lead to the same conclusion. So I suppose it is
conceivable that if things were predetermined, then free will could also exist at the same time. There would be multiple
courses of action that would all, inevitably, lead to the same predetermined event.
Not bad from someone who claims he's Legalee Insane. |
To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2003 : 20:05:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by darwin alogos
If you have a source which can clarify your position of personality that isn't related to a person,by all means please share.
Well, there's a gentleman who frequents this board who might give us some insight. He's got some fascinating stories of primate behavior. Slater, are you out there? |
I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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Infamous
Skeptic Friend
85 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2003 : 20:40:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Legallee Insane
There is a line in a song I once heard; "The road that leads to all, leads to one."
Though I don't believe in predetermination by any stretch of the imagination, perhaps it is conceivable that it would be much like any problem you might try to solve during your typical day at work or school or any thing like that. There are multiple ways that you could go about solving the problem that will all lead to the same conclusion. So I suppose it is conceivable that if things were predetermined, then free will could also exist at the same time. There would be multiple courses of action that would all, inevitably, lead to the same predetermined event.
"The road that leads to all leads to one"..."Inner Vision" by System of a Down..."IEAIAIO" is better though...
Anyways, wouldn't your choice from one of these multiple courses of action also be known by an omniscient being?
It feels as if part of this concept of free will and predetermination goes against causality somehow. Normally, you would witness an event and know how it turns out. With foreknowledge, you would know how the event turns out, and then see it happen. Unless your knowlege of the event affects how the event turns out, there would be a violation of causality. |
| Edited by - Infamous on 01/21/2003 20:43:51 |
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Legallee Insane
Skeptic Friend
Canada
126 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2003 : 21:12:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Infamous:
"The road that leads to all leads to one"..."Inner Vision" by System of a Down..."IEAIAIO" is better though...
Actually my favorite song from that album is probably "Ego Brain"
quote:
Infamous:
Anyways, wouldn't your choice from one of these multiple courses of action also be
known by an omniscient being?
It feels as if part of this concept of free will and predetermination goes against
causality somehow. Normally, you would witness an event and know how it turns out.
With foreknowledge, you would know how the event turns out, and then see it
happen. Unless your knowlege of the event affects how the event turns out, there
would be a violation of causality.
That reminds me of every movie or TV show I have ever watched (you know, the ones like "Final Destination", which was a horrible movie BTW) that asks the question we all wonder from time to time. If you could see future events before they happened, could you change them? |
--"Only the fool says in his heart: There is no god -- The wise says it to the world"
--"I darn you to HECK!" - Catbert
--"Don't worry, we're not laughing at you, we're laughing near you." |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2003 : 23:17:31 [Permalink]
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Phd: quote:
That's it? That's your refutation of my assertion that "personality" exists on an obvious continuum? Not only does your
dichotomy get falser and falser,
Actually the refutation to your assertion is what is called self-evident .Its like my little statement in order to deny logic you have to use it.By the same token in order to raise the question of "personhood" you must be one. |
To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
| Edited by - darwin alogos on 01/21/2003 23:18:18 |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2003 : 07:07:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by darwin alogos
Actually the refutation to your assertion is what is called self-evident .Its like my little statement in order to deny logic you have to use it.By the same token in order to raise the question of "personhood" you must be one.
The scientific community thanks you, but alas, your definitions are not quite ready for prime time. You might want to try sticking some meaning in that circle you've got going. Ye gods. |
I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2003 : 17:45:33 [Permalink]
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Phd:The scientific community thanks you, but alas, your definitions are not quite ready for prime time. You might want to try
sticking some meaning in that circle you've got going. Ye gods.
Perhaps you should try and come up with some definitions from anyone would like to go on the record as supporting your nonsensical view of non-personal personalitys |
To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2003 : 19:31:53 [Permalink]
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LI:Though I don't believe in predetermination by any stretch of the imagination, perhaps it is conceivable that it would be
much like any problem you might try to solve during your typical day at work or school or any thing like that. There are
multiple ways that you could go about solving the problem that will all lead to the same conclusion. So I suppose it is
conceivable that if things were predetermined, then free will could also exist at the same time. There would be multiple
courses of action that would all, inevitably, lead to the same predetermined event.
There is a little book written by a mathematican named Abbot titledFlatland which sheds much light on this subject. |
To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2003 : 21:01:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by darwin alogos
Perhaps you should try and come up with some definitions from anyone would like to go on the record as supporting your nonsensical view of [b]non-personal personalitys
Hmm. I always considered it self evident that, with a wide range of brain configurations and sizes and a wide range of behaviors, the continuum of consciousness should be apparent. Did you know that the one behavior many psychologists consider uniquely human is the belief in a higher power/cosmic purpose?
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I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2003 : 07:48:13 [Permalink]
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Phd: quote:
Hmm. I always considered it self evident that, with a wide range of brain configurations and sizes and a wide range of behaviors, the continuum of consciousness should be apparent
Really??? Did youpersonally think about this or was this just a secretion of to many 24oz beverages? |
To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2003 : 08:55:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by darwin alogos
Really??? Did youpersonally think about this or was this just a secretion of to many 24oz beverages?
No, I just got my BS in cognitive psychology. I haven't secreted 24oz beverages for some time now. I notice you ignored my comment about humans and higher power/cosmic purpose. Your apologetics books don't cover that? |
I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2003 : 09:38:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by PhDreamer
I haven't secreted 24oz beverages for some time now.
Wow! Personally, I've never secreted anything from my body that I'd want to drink...
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Stargirl
Skeptic Friend
USA
94 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2003 : 12:41:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Did you know that the one behavior many psychologists consider uniquely human is the belief in a higher power/cosmic purpose?
PhDreamer, sorry to interrupt your trouncing of DA's spurious arguments for the existence of a God. But as a skeptic I can't let that statement pass. Am I unaware of some groundbreaking research in communicating with other species? If you have a source for this assertion I'd like to see it. Has the question of belief in a high power ever been put forth to Cocoa, (spell?) the guerilla with a negative response, or with any response for that matter?
Hey, talk about coincidence I've got the movie Juggernaut playing in the background and Richard Harris just told this joke, Two goldfish are talking and one says to the other, “There must be a God, otherwise who changes the water.”
Bad joke I know but it's just as valid as any claim I've seen DA put fourth. |
If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him - Voltaire |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2003 : 14:51:02 [Permalink]
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Stargirl I work with Koko the gorilla, on an on going bases. In fact I'm getting ready for a business trip to Maui to help fund raise for her.
The only time, that I am aware of, that anyone has asked her if there was a god was during an internet chat that had been set up with her a few years back.
She said that god was a female gorilla who wore lots of red lipstick.
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2003 : 15:06:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Stargirl
PhDreamer, sorry to interrupt your trouncing of DA's spurious arguments for the existence of a God. But as a skeptic I can't let that statement pass. Am I unaware of some groundbreaking research in communicating with other species?
Nope. Just my experience talking to my professors and other behavioral psychologists.
quote:
If you have a source for this assertion I'd like to see it. Has the question of belief in a high power ever been put forth to Cocoa, (spell?) the guerilla with a negative response, or with any response for that matter?
Well, the things behaviorists look for are behaviors. Human religiosity often manifests in things we can observe, like rituals and idolatry that serve no apparent survival purpose, stuff we don't observe in animal behavior. I probably should have been clearer.
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I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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