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walt fristoe
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
 Posted - 02/03/2003 : 16:20:58
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I came across this poem, and thought y'all might enjoy it.
The Serpent in the Wilderness
Edgar Lee Masters
Jesus predicted that the world would come to an end
Before the generation which he adressed had passed away.
And many believed this would happen,
And looked to see the sky cast its stars as a fig tree casts its fruit;
And to see the sun darkened, and the moon failing of its light,
And the powers of heaven shaken, and Jesus descending
In clouds with great power and glory, attended by angels.
Whereupon the dead would come from their graves,
And the good would be caught up into heaven.
And the evil cast into the bottomless pit prepared for the devil and
his angels.
Nearly all the words of Jesus were founded upon fear;
And these prophecies of Jesus filled the world with terror,
And even at last shook the iron heart of Rome.
And for long centuries
After the generation which Jesus said would see the end of the world
Had passed away, still the fear that Jesus had instilled stayed alive,
And has not died to this day, and is used everywhere
wherewith to recruit churches,
And to get money for popes, cardinals, priests, and for preachers
Of the Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, Campbellite, and
other denominations,
Who live in ease off the money gathered by fear,
While scarcely any of them are enlightened or worth anything to
civilization.
And it will be some centuries before it becomes an accepted
understanding
That Jesus had no mind capable of doing good for the world,
While possessing power to put Socrates and men like him aside
So that they could do little for the world.
That this has been so and is yet so is just as mysterious
As the so-called problem of evil can be to any mind.
For no one can explain why Athens, which was indeed a city set upon a
hill,
Did not last forever for the benefit of all climes and peoples;
And why Jerusalem, a village of demons and camel's dung,
Became the shrine of the world
Whereto men still make pilgrimages to see the place where
Jesus died for men,
While few are interested in the jail where Socrates gave up his life
Rather than surrender his freedom to think.
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"If God chose George Bus of all the people in the world, how good could God be?"
Bill Maher |
Edited by - walt fristoe on 03/03/2003 16:03:14
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
 Posted - 02/04/2003 : 12:59:35 [Permalink]
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wf's poem: quote:
That Jesus had no mind capable of doing good for the world,
While possessing power to put Socrates and men like him aside
So that they could do little for the world.
That this has been so and is yet so is just as mysterious
As the so-called problem of evil can be to any mind.
Amazing when I last checked I couldn't find any Atheistic benevolent orgainzations feeding hungry people or a record of any higher learning institutions founded by Atheist,say like Harvard,Yale,or Princeton but keep slaming those who do walto. |
To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
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Avenel
Skeptic Friend
USA
60 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2003 : 13:45:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by darwin alogos
Amazing when I last checked I couldn't find any Atheistic benevolent orgainzations feeding hungry people or a record of any higher learning institutions founded by Atheist,say like Harvard,Yale,or Princeton but keep slaming those who do walto.
Many good answers to this strawman at http://www.positiveatheism.org/mail/eml9553.htm. The Lions Club International http://www.lionsclubs.org/EN/content/lions_mem_object.shtml is specifically apolitical and atheistic (in the sense that politics and religion are not to be discussed). Rotary International http://www.rotary.org/membership/prospective/becoming.html has no religious requirement for membership.
Since 76.5% of Americans consider themselves to be Christian, and Atheists, Agnostics, Humanists, Secularists, and those you don't even care enough to put themselves into one of those catagories together make up only 14.1%, it's hardly surprising that Christians are more visible. See http://www.religioustolerance.org/us_rel1.htm.
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"How many angels can swim on the head of a beer?" - Roger Ramjet |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2003 : 14:06:19 [Permalink]
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Is that how it works, DA? Benevolent organizations must go around actively advertising themselves as atheist charities in order for you to be satisfied? It's not enough that the United Way noticeably omits any reference to deity or religion in its documentation? In any case the average atheist donates time and money at a rate at least comparable to the average theist.
Know what's ironic? It's darn easy to find out what the Christian charities are because they never miss a chance to let you know they're Christians. Whatever happened to humility? What Would Jesus Think? |
I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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walt fristoe
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2003 : 14:23:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by darwin alogos
wf's poem: quote:
That Jesus had no mind capable of doing good for the world,
While possessing power to put Socrates and men like him aside
So that they could do little for the world.
That this has been so and is yet so is just as mysterious
As the so-called problem of evil can be to any mind.
Amazing when I last checked I couldn't find any Atheistic benevolent orgainzations feeding hungry people or a record of any higher learning institutions founded by Atheist,say like Harvard,Yale,or Princeton but keep slaming those who do walto.
How about this for a slam, Darwin? This is from the book After the Escape by Fredrick Douglass:
I assert most unhesitatingly, that the religion of the south is a mere covering for the most horrid crimes-a justifier of the most appalling barbarity, a sanctifier of the most hateful frauds, and a dark shelter under which the darkest, foulest, grossest, and most infernal deeds of slaveholders find the strongest protection. Were I to be again reduced to the chains of slavery, next to that enslavement, I should regard being the slave of a religious master the greatest calamity that could befall me....I hate the corrupt, slaveholding, women-whipping, cradle-plundering, partial and hypocritical Christianity of this land.
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And this, by the same author:
We have men sold to build churches, women sold to support the gospel, and babes sold to purchase bibles for the poor heathen, all for the glory of God and the good of souls. The slave auctioneer's bell and the church-going bell chime in with each other, and the bitter cries of the heart-broken slave are drowned in the religious shouts of his pious master. Revivals of religion and revivals in the slave trade go hand in hand.
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I could give you more, but that's enough for now.
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"If God chose George Bus of all the people in the world, how good could God be?"
Bill Maher |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2003 : 23:55:47 [Permalink]
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My my you would think (by your responses) that I had just insulted your mothers.Your the ones who started slaming Jesus.I merely pointed out that many benvolent orgainaztions exist today and in the past that believe in his message,as well as many of the first universities in this land.I never said "atheist are bad people" or that there weren't other benvolent organizations(you forgot "The Red Cresent").I guess I should have added that before "YOU" start chucking stones you should get out of your glass house. |
To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
| Edited by - darwin alogos on 02/04/2003 23:56:46 |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2003 : 01:33:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
My my you would think (by your responses) that I had just insulted your mothers.Your the ones who started slaming Jesus.I merely pointed out that many benvolent orgainaztions exist today and in the past that believe in his message,as well as many of the first universities in this land.I never said "atheist are bad people" or that there weren't other benvolent organizations(you forgot "The Red Cresent").I guess I should have added that before "YOU" start chucking stones you should get out of your glass house.
You lie. You implied in your previous post that there were no atheistic organizations, then you were given links that showed you that there were. In your previous post you implied that they were all xian.
So now you act surprised at the reaction you've gotten? That's how life works. If you say something patently false, you'll get corrected.
Your remark about us living in glass houses makes no sense. All they did was show your previous statment to be wrong. You try to get a rise out of people and when they show you wrong, you back off, yet you still show the same attitude in post after post here. |
>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
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Wurrwakh the Ass Monkey
New Member
USA
18 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2003 : 02:29:37 [Permalink]
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| I think the problem is that there are very few (I can't think of *any*) nations that aren't built upon a religious base. For those of us who're not particularly religious, or are emphatically non-religious, this is alienating. We're an unrecognized minority that isn't really tolerated, because we're ignored. Everyone assumes you belong to this or that religious organization. They haven't even gotten to the point where they'll consider the idea that you might not be the least bit religious. Of course this creates some animosity. Still, I think it's unfair and terribly foolhardy to deny the power religion has to motivate--to good ends *and* bad. If only humans were more apt at conspiring to do good. |
--Wurrwakh, A.M. |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2003 : 20:59:37 [Permalink]
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the ignored quote:
You lie. You implied in your previous post that there were no atheistic organizations, then you were given links that showed
you that there were. In your previous post you implied that they were all xian.
So now you act surprised at the reaction you've gotten? That's how life works. If you say something patently false, you'll
get corrected.
I said in response to what "I" interpreted as a "slam" on someone I love that: quote:
Amazing when I last checked I couldn't find any Atheistic benevolent orgainzations feeding hungry people...
Now if "you" claim and can "prove" they are "atheistic" then I'll apologize for a misstatement.However, I think that most historians would agree that the benevolent orgainzations were started from a religious motivation. |
To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
| Edited by - darwin alogos on 02/05/2003 21:04:18 |
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Avenel
Skeptic Friend
USA
60 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2003 : 08:06:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by darwin alogos
Now if "you" claim and can "prove" they are "atheistic" then I'll apologize for a misstatement.However, I think that most historians would agree that the benevolent orgainzations were started from a religious motivation.
The Lions Clubs International began as an association of business clubs. As far as I can tell from their web site, they've had the rule that politics and religion were not to be discussed from the very beginning. |
"How many angels can swim on the head of a beer?" - Roger Ramjet |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2003 : 14:12:33 [Permalink]
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DA, again I ask what is it you want? Why should there be any benevolent associations that proclaim, "We help the homeless and we are atheists"? Atheists in general don't see any particular benefit to proclaiming their "anti-piety," if you will, in the absence of political motivation to do so.
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I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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Phaedrus
New Member
2 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2003 : 02:41:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by darwin alogos
However, I think that most historians would agree that the benevolent orgainzations were started from a religious motivation.
An interesting, if somewhat redundant point. Since christian churches dominated the political sphere in most of europe during the middle ages, and prescribed the dominant ideology during the formation of america, it's hardly surprising that benevolent organizations can trace their roots back to religion.
Let's give DA the assumption that currently, most public benevolent organisations are religious.
If left unexamined, it may seem that the world would be in dire need if it weren't for these religious do-gooders. But let's look closely at what's going on here. The Catholic Church, Jehova's Witnesses, etc. all contribute (very visibly) to charity. I don't know the exact figure, but ask this question. How much MORE would these organisations be able to contribute if they did not need to have entire cities to run (i.e. the Vatican), compounds to build for religious education (I drove, and drove, and drove past my local Jehova's Witness compound the other day), print Bibles by the truckload, furnish cathedrals wih expensive decorations, provide security for Archbishops, the Pope etc., and of course make sure their leaders, be it Billy Graham or the Pope, live in resplendent luxury?
So yes, many people would suffer if it were not for church-based charity. But even more people are suffering still, due to the business-like nature of churches. Their primary aim is not to help others, but to spread the word of god.
While it is certainly admirable for very rich organisations or individuals to donate large amounts of money, how difficult is it for a company say, which is worth 2 Billion to donate 1 Million dollars to charity? That's .05 % of it's net worth. Big Deal. I suspect the case is similar with most religious organisations, especially large churches.
One of the few things acredited to jesus I admire is his charity toward the poor. He often stated that the rich should give almost all their belongings to those in need. I suppose that idea got lost somewhere between the bodyguards, the gold plated candelabra, and the SUVs... |
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welshdean
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
172 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2003 : 06:06:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
originally posted by DA:
Now if "you" claim and can "prove" they are "atheistic" then I'll apologize for a misstatement.
As has been previously stated, non-theistic organisations, rarely, if ever, proclaim their non theistic standpoint, unlike the VAST majority of (if not all) religious orgs (....mmm I'm reminded of Luke 18:9-14). This fact does not and cannot imply that there are no atheistic charities. Once again, you've been given links in previous post that will not support your denigration, yet you refuse to read/acknowledge them!! Read this tonight: EX 20:16 because yet again you are demonstrating a complete disregard for your own (and your religions) integrity.
quote:
originally posted by DA:
However, I think that most historians would agree that the benevolent orgainzations were started from a religious motivation.
True, I have no axe to grind with this statement, although it seem fair to point out that ALL (not most)historians will agree that religion has and does rape the third world on a daily basis, and has done for centuries. Is this a case of "what the lord giveth, the lord taketh away??? Can you name ONE Atheistic organisation that has repeatedly pressured the destitute S.American countries into pledging tythes.
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"Frazier is so ugly he should donate his face to the US Bureau of Wild Life."
"I am America. I am the part you won't recognize, but get used to me. Black, confident, cocky. My name, not yours. My religion, not yours. My goals, my own. Get used to me."
"Service to others is the rent you pay for your room here on earth."
---- Muhammad Ali
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2003 : 15:52:48 [Permalink]
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Welshdean: quote:
Can you name ONE Atheistic organisation that has repeatedly pressured the destitute
S.American countries into pledging tythes
Cuba Communist Castro |
To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2003 : 18:38:37 [Permalink]
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Phaedrus wrote:quote:
So yes, many people would suffer if it were not for church-based charity. But even more people are suffering still, due to the business-like nature of churches. Their primary aim is not to help others, but to spread the word of god.
I'm sure some church members would argue that spreading the word of god is helping others. Of course, whether it is, indeed, "helping" is something which could only be learned after death or Judgement Day.
On the other hand, "the road to Hell is paved with good intentions," isn't it? :) |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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