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 SKEPTICS SAY THE 'DARNDEST' THINGS
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular

USA
532 Posts

Posted - 02/27/2003 :  02:29:16  Show Profile Send darwin alogos a Private Message
Like Art Linkletter's old tv show these "Skeptics" say the darndest things.... Take goodold Dave W.nonsensical statement:
quote:
effects in an open system can
be larger than their causes.
Sure Dave,happens all the time.
  • Not to be out done is Slater's
  • "Design isn't evidence of intelligence
  • That may have worked with you 3rd grade Art teacher Slater but not in the Real World.
More tomorrow.

To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny?

Edited by - darwin alogos on 02/27/2003 02:39:26

Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26020 Posts

Posted - 02/27/2003 :  04:35:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
DA wrote:
quote:
Sure Dave,happens all the time.
Your disbelief does not constitute evidence or argument that my position is wrong. You have failed to refute my position per your own standards.

Also, the appearance of design doesn't constitute evidence of intelligence, and you have yet to provide any evidence that human DNA was actually designed (even if someone grants that it appears to be designed, which I don't believe anyone has). So on that point, you have also failed to refute the position per your own standards.

The person saying the "darndest things" is you, DA. You demand evidence and argument, yet fail to provide much of your own, often resorting instead to bald assertions and opinions. When pressed on a point, you often simply ignore the evidence and argument you've demanded, and change the subject. Examples of these tactics being employed by you are plentiful, especially in the DJRE threads.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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LordofEntropy
Skeptic Friend

USA
85 Posts

Posted - 02/27/2003 :  05:53:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit LordofEntropy's Homepage Send LordofEntropy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by darwin alogos

More tomorrow.



Oh yay, I can hardly wait.

Entropy just isn't what it used to be.
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Orpheus
Skeptic Friend

92 Posts

Posted - 02/27/2003 :  07:37:17   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Orpheus a Private Message
Surely this is not the proper forum for this sort of meta-discussion? If DA wants to catalogue disagreements, perhaps a new forum should be created?

In any event, DA would be well advised to read Dennet's Darwin's Dangerous Idea for an explanation of how evolution appears to "design" complex structures like DNA, yet does so by very small, incremental algorithmic changes.

Find your own damned answers!
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Jelly Fish
New Member

46 Posts

Posted - 02/27/2003 :  12:58:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Jelly Fish an AOL message Send Jelly Fish a Private Message
I want to join in, I want to join in....

But its too clever for me..

Jelly
..can we talk about Iraq?
I'm being slly. sorry.

Glendower..“I can call spirits from the vasty deep.”
Hotspur..“Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them?”
Jelly.."Not a hope in hell"
adapted from Henry 1V part 1 by Mr W. Shakespeare
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Trish
SFN Addict

USA
2102 Posts

Posted - 02/27/2003 :  14:24:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Trish a Private Message
Um, Jelly, doubt you're being silly. Just read any post by DA and silliness abounds. I see that it hasn't changed in the months I was MIA wading my way through the VA medical system.

...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young

"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.

They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular

USA
532 Posts

Posted - 02/27/2003 :  21:07:17   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send darwin alogos a Private Message
Congatulations Dave W. for getting a second "Skeptics Say The Darndests Things" by your response to the previous post:
quote:
Also, the appearance of design doesn't constitute evidence of intelligence, and you have yet to provide any evidence that
human DNA was actually designed (even if someone grants that it appears to be designed, which I don't believe anyone
has). So on that point, you have also failed to refute the position per your own standards.
Just what on earth does the phrase "appearance of design" mean? It appears,on the surface, to be an intelligent response?However, upon further review it just another one of "Dave's" lame analogies.Why? because it's like saying there exist square circles.If something appears to be designed it's because it actually is.Just like when a broadcaster states it appears that "Barry Bonds is about to get his fourth homerun of the night" the reason he makes that statement is because the ball actually clears the fence.Now you brought up DNA Dave and thats very good because if you had paid attention, on the other thread(DGE) you would have known we now have,thanks to some intelligent German Scientist,empirical,verifiable evidence that it takes intelligence to design what resembles a portion of a version of DNA.

To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny?
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13476 Posts

Posted - 02/27/2003 :  22:15:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message
quote:
darwin alogos:
Just what on earth does the phrase "appearance of design" mean? If something appears to be designed it's because it actually is.


Not necessarily. There are lots of designs that can be explained without having to assume an intelligence or a designer. That is unless you feel the need to deify nature or add a completely unnecessary deity to the explanation. Nature is full of designs. Consider the following:
quote:

Philosopher and mathematician René Descartes was the first to pen a reasonably accurate description of snow crystal morphologies, about as well as can be done with the naked eye. These careful notes included observations of capped columns and 12-sided snowflakes, both rather rare forms.

"These were little plates of ice, very flat, very polished, very transparent, about the thickness of a sheet of rather thick paper...but so perfectly formed in hexagons, and of which the six sides were so straight, and the six angles so equal, that it is impossible for men to make anything so exact."

"I only had difficulty to imagine what could have formed and made so exactly symmetrical these six teeth around each grain in the midst of free air and during the agitation of a very strong wind, until I finally considered that this wind had easily been able to carry some of these grains to the bottom or to the top of some cloud, and hold them there, because they were rather small; and that there they were obliged to arrange themselves in such a way that each was surrounded by six others in the same plane, following the ordinary order of nature." -- Descartes, 1635


http://www.its.caltech.edu/~atomic/snowcrystals/earlyobs/earlyobs.htm


Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular

USA
532 Posts

Posted - 02/27/2003 :  23:07:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send darwin alogos a Private Message
Kil:
quote:
Not necessarily. There are lots of designs that can be explained without having to assume an intelligence or a designer.
That is unless you feel the need to deify nature or add a completely unnecessary deity to the explanation. Nature is full of
designs. Consider the following:
First,I would at least like to thank you Kil for providing evidence and an argument to go along with it(with a mind like that I doubt your name will ever be posted on this thread).However,I have to disagree with your conclusion( and perhaps some of the blame belongs to me,because I didn't specify that the kind of design that Dave brought up with DNA is of a specified complexity variety),the type you brought up belongs to a random/redundant type;like your snowflakes,patterns in sandrifts ect.But thanks again for least participating in rational dialogue.

To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny?
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Jelly Fish
New Member

46 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2003 :  01:58:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Jelly Fish an AOL message Send Jelly Fish a Private Message
How do you get to become a Skeptic friend?

or, even more mysteriously, an Evil Skeptic?

Does unqualifying yourself from being a new member depend on the number of posts , or the length of membership?

Jelly Fish

Glendower..“I can call spirits from the vasty deep.”
Hotspur..“Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them?”
Jelly.."Not a hope in hell"
adapted from Henry 1V part 1 by Mr W. Shakespeare
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13476 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2003 :  07:52:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message
quote:
Jelly Fish: Does unqualifying yourself from being a new member depend on the number of posts , or the length of membership?


At fifty posts you will earn the title of Skeptic Friend.



Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Jelly Fish
New Member

46 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2003 :  07:58:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Jelly Fish an AOL message Send Jelly Fish a Private Message
ok...thanks kil...and how do you become an evil Skeptic?

I havent seen any others with that label?

Jelly

Glendower..“I can call spirits from the vasty deep.”
Hotspur..“Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them?”
Jelly.."Not a hope in hell"
adapted from Henry 1V part 1 by Mr W. Shakespeare
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Infamous
Skeptic Friend

85 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2003 :  09:06:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Infamous a Private Message
quote:

effects in an open system can be larger than their causes.



Actually, that's true. Here's an example:

One of your important system files gets corrupted (maybe config.sys). Now your computer won't boot.

Cause: One little error in one little file.
Effect: Your computer doesn't work.

The effect is greater than its cause.
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Slater
SFN Regular

USA
1668 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2003 :  09:45:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Slater a Private Message
I've been trying to think of examples of closed systems. None occur to me that aren't manmade. Everything natural exists in an open system until you get to the entire universe which is obeying the 2nd LTD perfectly.
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Infamous
Skeptic Friend

85 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2003 :  10:00:58   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Infamous a Private Message
Closed systems do not exist except in simulations designed to simplify reality.

Nothing in reality is isolated from the rest of the universe.
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moakley
SFN Regular

USA
1888 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2003 :  10:24:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send moakley a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by darwin alogos

If something appears to be designed it's because it actually is.



When I step outside the earth appears to be flat, therefore it must be flat.

Makes sense to me...

Life is good

Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous
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