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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 04/10/2003 : 13:01:16 [Permalink]
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Here's an interesting set of thoughts on the subject. From The Anomolist:
http://www.tuscaloosanews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?Date=20030410&Category=APA&ArtNo=304100821&Ref=AR&cachetime=5
Seems this feller is determined to show a scientific background for the Book of Exodus -- yes, all of it.
Lots o' luck...........
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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| Edited by - filthy on 04/10/2003 13:03:08 |
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gal2v20
New Member
USA
5 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2003 : 14:44:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Starman
Well, well...
[leans back for another excursion into the mind of a believer]
...well Robert, show me the light, give me a reason to belive,
show me the errors of my ways...
you have all given a good aurgument and its is not a bad thing to into the things before u beleive,only you will never understandthe deep things of god untill you come to him,Inestine was a geneus but not until the day that he said "i want to think the thoughts of God"anyway back to what i was about to say ,oh yeah the law , is it a good thing or a bad thing,or to love one another good or bad (you know what I mean so don't give me any gayish remarks)is it a good thing to help people?think about it inside of your self for a moment and ask yourself wether these things are good or bad,and where did these laws come from? they got them from the bible if you think that they came from some other place you are mistaken this country was founded and based from the bible thats where we received our laws ,ofcourse some have been added scinse but the main ones came from the bible,now look at the statement about jesus and the temple look at it in this way think about for just a moment that the bible is true and that jesus is the son of God,ok now that we'er looking at it this way,what jesus did was justifiable in that it was his fathers house and people came their not to do the work or to seek God ,but to make a profit from God's house,not a crimanl act if you walked in to your fathers house or even your house and saw someone there stilling your's or your fathers money would you not defend it,nowis it private property of the church or of God you must ask yourselfs ,who is the intruder if God Created all things is not all things his?now look at these others today who claim to be of christ (christians) or as most people do call them insane like hitler and people of this sort who claim they do all these things for jesus,is jesus bad or do these people make him look bad?or if someone committed a crime useing your identity should you be punished for it?no certainly not, why because now days we have ways of knowing or finding out who someone is and if we know that the discription of the criminal dosn't fit the discription of you then how can they say you did it? same thing here how can we blame Jesus or God for somthing bad that someone useing his name does?also a truth God can not be prooven to exist but how ever if you look at geography then you will see that most studies lean toward the bible being correct than not and thats a fact people say (what happend to the waters of the flood they cant just vanish)well if you look at the earth its more of an egg shape than round at its nothern and southern axis scientist have said that if all of the ice were to melt that it would flood the entire earth, |
Robert Epperson |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2003 : 15:21:03 [Permalink]
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Pul-leese, gal2v20! I can't read that -- my eyes are old and the specs the VA gave me ain't what they might be.
I've seen run-on sentences before, but wow! And still no pararaphs.
Look, I'd love to check out your argument, but trying to read it is just too tedious. Listen, if you don't write coherently, with at least an attempt to use proper grammer and format, your writing will be ignored by all but the gluttons for punishment.
Here on the net, you are judged by your writings, not only their content, but their style as well. Please try to clean this up and give us another shot at it. 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2003 : 16:47:11 [Permalink]
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| gal2v20, I'm just curious. What prompted you to come to a Skeptic site? What would you like to accomplish here? What do you hope to take away with you? |
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walt fristoe
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2003 : 17:29:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Slater
gal2v20, I'm just curious. What prompted you to come to a Skeptic site? What would you like to accomplish here? What do you hope to take away with you?
I think gal2v20 just wants to be annoying. Seems to be working.  I won't read any more posts by this person! |
"If God chose George Bus of all the people in the world, how good could God be?"
Bill Maher |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2003 : 17:46:30 [Permalink]
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I still have hopes that gal2v20 has something to contribute. But it's going to have to have at least a sembelance of coherency. I just can't decipher that run-on stuff.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2003 : 00:35:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by gal2v20
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Please try to write more coherent. I will try to read your points, but if you don't care enough to write in a readable way, why should I care what you have to say?
Laws: Most legal principles in the western world come from the Roman Republic wich ended around 46-32 BCE (BC). The bible wasn't written and judaism unheard of in Rome.
...some have been added scinse but the main ones came from the bible ...
Which main laws is this? Witch burning is not legal anymore nor is it legal to kill people working on the sabbath.
If you think that the USA was founded and based on the bible you are ignorant of American history (and other history).
The world is not egg shaped! Whoever gave you that idea? Earth os a sphere, flattened at the poles.
... most studies lean toward the bible being correct than not and thats a fact ...
Which studies would that be? Where are the pillars of the world?
... scientist have said that if all of the ice were to melt that it would flood the entire earth...
No scientist (Creationist are not honest scientist) would say that, not unless you remove all mountains and makes the the earth smooth. (And if you could do that you don't need to melt the ice to cover all the land with the available water.)
BTW, why did god hide (or distort) all the evidence of this flood?
You try to convince me by being ignorant of every subject you cover?
Do you expect that to work?
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2003 : 04:21:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
I think gal2v20 just wants to be annoying. Seems to be working. I won't read any more posts by this person!
Naw, Walt. I think that Robert has a genuine desire to proselytize, but he's a bit new at trying it on a Skeptic Board.
Robert, please, shorter sentences, (though I'm the world's best at run on sentences, I think), and shorter paragraphs. Some of us have old and tired eyes, and very little patience.
quote:
this country was founded and based from the bible thats where we received our laws
Well, many of the founding fathers were in fact Christians. Many of them, such as Patrick Henry, were very influential. Unfortunately, those that wanted Christianity included in our Constitution came out a distant second to those that feared the tyrannies, and the persecutions of Religion based gov't.
In response to a group of Baptists upset about being forced to pay taxes to the the state of Connecticutt for support of the Congregational Church, Thomas Jefferson wrote, "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which delcared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State."
James Madison, the cheif architect of the Constitution wrote, "Strongly guarded as is the separation between Religion and Government in the Constitution of the United States, the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history."
This next quote is from the 1797 Treaty with Tripoli, which was begun during the Washington administration, voted upon by the legislature, and signed into law by President John Adams; "As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,--as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen, [Muslims],--and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan, [Islamic], nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries"
Yes, there were many Christians among our founding fathers, but they decided that the best path for this nation was a secular one. This is why you will not find in our Constitution the words Jesus, God, Christian, or any other allusions to religion other than the establishment and exercise clauses of the 1st Amendment, and the prohibition of any religious test or oath of office in, if I remember correctly, Article 3, Section 6.
Though we have not always acted in strictly secular ways as a nation, this does in no way make us a nation founded upon the principles of Christianity. As a matter of fact, the teachings of God and Jesus would tend to steer us more toward a path of Socialism or Monarchy. (See Ex. 16:16-18, 2 Thess. 3:10-12, Acts 2:44-45 and Acts 4:34-37, among a plethora of others such as Matt. 19:21, Matt. 19:23-24, Luke 12:33, Luke 11:41 and Mark 10:23 which appear to be outright rejections of capitalism) Furthermore, the Old Testament is a wealth of evidence that God likes Monarchy. |
"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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| Edited by - Tim on 04/11/2003 04:44:27 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2003 : 04:47:20 [Permalink]
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OK, I will try... Re: the Flood:
If the polar ice caps were to entirely melt, we'd lose a lot of shore line and some major cities (under the conditions required to quick-melt the caps, I rather doubt we'd be here to see it), but the entire world would not be flooded as described in the Bible.
Consider; Mt. Everest is something like 29,000 feet tall. To cover it in the brief time period alloted, the water would have to come down, or up -- Fountains of the Earth, etc. -- at a rate exceding eleven feet per minute! I've had some discussions about this and this estiment might be pretty low. In any event, that's not rain, it's hydrolic apocalypse. Every scrap of top soil would have been stripped clear down to the bed rock. And 4,500 years would not have been enough time for it to reform.
I'll leave it to others to point out the sanitation conditions on the alledged Ark as well as the sheer impossibility of cramming all those creatures aboard. And the seaworthiness of such a contraption.
Of course, it's easy to say, "God done it, and that's the end of it!" But then we stray far afield from science.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2003 : 10:24:55 [Permalink]
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gal2v20 wrote:quote:
...oh yeah the law , is it a good thing or a bad thing,or to love one another good or bad (you know what I mean so don't give me any gayish remarks)is it a good thing to help people?think about it inside of your self for a moment and ask yourself wether these things are good or bad,and where did these laws come from? they got them from the bible...
I never knew there were laws here in the U.S. about love! Is it safe to assume that the idea that there really are laws regarding love comes from the same place that your apparent homophobia comes from?
As for laws regarding "helping people," the few places which have good samaritan laws only got them very recently, as far as I know (last 10-15 years). If they're based on the Bible, so what? They're still a halfway decent idea. Or maybe you're thinking of how you can deduct charitable gifts from your income taxes? Income taxes are pretty new, too.
The idea that the Bible is the one-and-only reference one can go to in order to find out what's "good" or "bad" is simply silly. Anyone who requires a "rulebook" to understand many aspects of "good" and "bad" simply (and possibly through no fault of their own) has no ability to empathize.
Many of the "laws" in the Bible will be completely incomprehensible to many of the people who don't know how to have empathy. And those who do possess empathy, but who choose to ignore it in favor of their own self-interest, will also choose to ignore the writings in a 2,000-year-old rulebook. The Bible, therefore, only applies to those who are both capable of understanding it and who choose to follow it. A lousy basis for secular law. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2003 : 11:52:02 [Permalink]
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Robert, I just wanted to add that law in the US is based upon English Common Law as described by 18th century Oxford Common Law Professor Sir William Blackstone. Our founding fathers found Blackstone's ideas of using the rights of man as the primary consideration for making law a very refreshing idea.
Some people do feel that Common Law was originally founded in Biblical Law. However, the great thinkers of the self-proclaimed Enlightenment moved law into the hands of men.
The modern criticisms of Common Law seem to be more concerned with the idea that it is concerned with the rights of man rather the rule of law. Notice that there is a glaring lack of religious overtones in the debate over systems of law in the past three hundred years.
Edited twice because my eyes are shot, and have momentarily misplaced my bifocals. Getting old sucks sometimes. |
"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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| Edited by - Tim on 04/11/2003 11:55:37 |
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gal2v20
New Member
USA
5 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2003 : 13:44:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
gal2v20 wrote:quote:
...oh yeah the law , is it a good thing or a bad thing,or to love one another good or bad (you know what I mean so don't give me any gayish remarks)is it a good thing to help people?think about it inside of your self for a moment and ask yourself wether these things are good or bad,and where did these laws come from? they got them from the bible...
I never knew there were laws here in the U.S. about love! Is it safe to assume that the idea that there really are laws regarding love comes from the same place that your apparent homophobia comes from?
As for laws regarding "helping people," the few places which have good samaritan laws only got them very recently, as far as I know (last 10-15 years). If they're based on the Bible, so what? They're still a halfway decent idea. Or maybe you're thinking of how you can deduct charitable gifts from your income taxes? Income taxes are pretty new, too.
The idea that the Bible is the one-and-only reference one can go to in order to find out what's "good" or "bad" is simply silly. Anyone who requires a "rulebook" to understand many aspects of "good" and "bad" simply (and possibly through no fault of their own) has no ability to empathize.
Many of the "laws" in the Bible will be completely incomprehensible to many of the people who don't know how to have empathy. And those who do possess empathy, but who choose to ignore it in favor of their own self-interest, will also choose to ignore the writings in a 2,000-year-old rulebook. The Bible, therefore, only applies to those who are both capable of understanding it and who choose to follow it. A lousy basis for secular law.
The word Bible comes from a Latin form of the Greek word Biblia which means "little books." The Bible refers to the collection of 66 books from different authors compiled to make up what we refer to today as "The Holy Bible". Thirty-nine of the original books kept by ancient Israel in Hebrew are the ones we know today as The Old Testament.
The last section of the Bible known familiarly as The New Testament is comprised of 27 books or letters written in Greek. The Greek used was not formal Greek but the conversational Greek used at the time of the Apostles.
Forty men shared in the writing of the Bible over a span of about 1,600 years from the time of Moses to the last book written by John. The last book of the Old Testament, Malachi, was written about 443 B.C. The first book of the New Testament, Matthew, was written about 40 A.D. leaving a 500 year gap between the Old and New Testament books.
The Bible its self is not 2,000 years old,the scrolls that the bible was taken from are older than 2,000 years the oldest Genesis [beginings]was written about 3500 BC,BCE.
oh The reason I'm here is because I stumbeled on to this site and found your statements quite interesting,it also helps me to study what I beleive more you guys have put up quite an aurgument. |
Robert Epperson |
| Edited by - gal2v20 on 04/11/2003 16:12:12 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2003 : 16:20:59 [Permalink]
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 Thank you Robert, for a clear and concise statement that even I can understand!
Thanks also for the break down on the Bible. I really don't know enough about the finer points to comment, but others, having made a study of it like yourself, do and will have some remarks, I'm sure.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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PhoenixPaw
New Member
Sweden
10 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2003 : 19:28:21 [Permalink]
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One little thing.
C.E. = Common Era. What christians refer to A.D.
B.C.E. = Before Common Era, or BC for christians.
I'm not a big scollar in the history of the bible, but wasn't the bible compiled at, or around, 350 C.E.? So what about the "apocryphic"(spelling?) books? Why can they not be concidered equal to those in the bible?
Then we have the issue of correctness in the translation of the "original manuscripts". The jews claim that the text of their latest copy of the Torah is exactly as in the original. Have the Torah been the source-text for the modern translation of the Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numeri, and Deuteronomium books? Or are they not the same texts that Jesus grew up with in a country where the common people knew at least the basics of the Torah?
Where is Lillith? Who did Kain go and marry? And who gave birth the children of Set?
As for the Flood...
How come the Chinese, Egyptians and Indians/Hindu-population didn't wrote anything about the "world covering" flood? Or was it the three sons of Noa, and their decendants, who faked the rich history of those three civilisations and built the massive constructions found within their reach? |
The next time Micro$oft makes a product that doesn't suck, it'll be a vacuum-cleaner. (Source: random USEnet signature) |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2003 : 23:36:29 [Permalink]
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gal2v20 wrote:quote:
. . . The Bible its self is not 2,000 years old,the scrolls that the bible was taken from are older than 2,000 years the oldest Genesis [beginings]was written about 3500 BC,BCE.
Okay, you responded with nothing but a nit-pick of my talk about a "2,000-year-old rulebook." The age of the book(s) has no relevance to what I was saying. You failed to address any of the real points I was making:
Which laws of the U.S.A. address "love," as you imply?
Which laws of the U.S.A. address "charity" besides those I mentioned?
Do people who can understand (and who choose to employ) empathy need a "rulebook" (of any age) to help them determine "good" from "bad"?
A new one: do you understand what empathy is? And how it relates to moral behaviour in a society? A society which may or may not believe in an afterlife full of rewards and punishements?
After all, if your only reason for doing "good" is a belief that you'll be rewarded in some sort of everlasting here-after, you're just selfish. Same if your only reason for not doing "bad" things is fear of an eternal punishment.
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- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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