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Bozola
Skeptic Friend
USA
166 Posts |
 Posted - 07/23/2001 : 12:38:44 [Permalink]
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Gun-happy Bush administration kills int'l small arms control effort
Posted on Monday, July 23 @ 09:41:26 EDT
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By Ewen MacAskill, The Guardian
A UN conference aimed at curbing the trade in small arms ended in almost total failure at the weekend after the US blocked every significant proposal.
The two-week conference in New York finished with a diluted statement which promises to control small arms but is in effect worthless.
A legally binding agreement, backed by the EU and others, which would have made a difference, was successfully resisted by the US.
The US specifically blocked a plan to prevent states selling to rebel groups, saying that it wanted to retain the option of intervening in support of guerrillas fighting an undesirable regime. It also opposed what it regarded as proposals to restrict civilian gun ownership.
The UN wanted a legally binding agreement to reduce the 500m small arms at loose in the world which worsen conflicts, mainly in the developing world.
The conference's only positive step was to agree, despite initial US opposition, to meet again in 2006, although only to review progress.
The countries favouring wide-ranging reform - among them the EU states, Canada, Switzerland, Norway, Mexico and South Africa - expressed sadness and frustration. "The US should be ashamed," the South African envoy, Jean Du Preez, said.
Each of the countries favouring reform caved in eventually to avoid the conference breaking up without any common statement, but Nigeria and Sierra Leone, which has been ravaged by civil war, stuck out almost to the end.
The African countries had especially backed a proposal to sell arms only to states. "If you send arms to non-state actors, you are sending them to rebels who are trying to overthrow governments," the Nigerian delegate said.
Rebecca Peters, of the Open Society Institute, said: "It's unbelievably selfish that the nation that produces more than half the small arms in the world is prepared to jeopardise the safety of other countries for the sake of pandering to its own domestic interests."
Reprinted from The Guardian:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usguns/
Story/0,2763,525899,00.html
Bozola
- Practicing skeet for the Rapture. |
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Piltdown
Skeptic Friend
USA
312 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2001 : 18:59:55 [Permalink]
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Another Update.
The story that started this string has taken another dramatic turn: Lubbock Police Chief Ken Walker has been suspended pending an investigation of Sgt. Cox's death.http://www.lubbockonline.com/stories/072301/upd_075-5128.shtml
Chief Walker was, in fact, out of town when the fatal shooting took place and had no direct role in the episode that led to it. There may be more to this than the questionable tactics of Walker's department.
It just happens that Walker is quite unpopular with Lubbock's large and powerful fundamentalist community. This dates back to 1990-91, when "satanic panic" was sweeping the country. It hit harder and weirder in Lubbock than in most places. In particular, the local school district administration launched a literal witch hunt, passing a whole raft of anti-satanism/witchcraft measures, tacitly accepting the panic stricken fundies' claim that these 2 things were one and the same. Long lists of banned symbols, hand signs, styles of dress, and celebrity paraphernalia were promulgated and enforced. According to the ACLU, about 700 students (one in 60) were punished for violations of these rules, including a number of expulsions. Children were forced to attend anti-satanism assemblies where self-styled experts on the occult regaled them with gruesome tales of satanic abuse. One elementary school principal hauled suspected "satanists" (none as old as 13) into her office and showed them unspeakably graphic photos of mutilated animals allegedly sacrificed by satanic cults. She then called their parents and insisted that they join her in praying over the accused.
The ACLU sought to intervene legally. Before anything could happen on that front, the Lubbock Police, in the person of Chief Walker, took a hand. At a press conference, he contradicted many of the fundamentalist claims of satanic crime, said that he had no knowledge of any crime ever being committed by organized satanists in Lubbock, and challenged the panic-mongers to produce evidence for their claims. He also threatened to arrest anyone whose efforts to suppress satanism crossed over into child abuse.
The panic subsided, the long lists of prohibited symbolism were shortened, enforcement of the remaining rules was relaxed and certain school personnel were transferred. The lady with the gruesome pictures was quietly persuaded to resign. Rumors of local satanic ritual-abuse still sweep through the fundy community here from time to time. Alleged police protection for the criminal cults is almost always a feature of these rumors.
Edited by - Piltdown on 07/23/2001 19:03:17 |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2001 : 20:47:47 [Permalink]
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You know, sometimes I need a good reminder on why I never venture into the "Bible Belt."
That should refresh my memory for a bit.
Thanks
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Greg
Skeptic Friend
USA
281 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2001 : 21:49:00 [Permalink]
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Let's see. More guns, less freedom of expression. The forces of repression are at the door and ready to kick it in.
Greg.
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2001 : 08:06:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
You know, sometimes I need a good reminder on why I never venture into the "Bible Belt."
That should refresh my memory for a bit.
No kidding! 
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Ma gavte la nata! |
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sega
Skeptic Friend
USA
73 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2001 : 14:28:06 [Permalink]
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All this talk of banning guns has really made me think about mayhem violence and death. No, not in that way.
I'm talkin about booze. It undoubtedly causes far more deaths, violence and misery than guns do, every day in both the US and Europe.
Why not ban it? It would definately reduce violence at levels far exceeding the level of violence currently "Caused" by guns.
What was that?? Your "rights" and personal freedoms? That does not apply here. People who are drunk are violent, and that affects me. My right to lower insurance rates, safer highways, and fewer soccer riots is greater than your right to drink.
Objectively, this view makes a whole lotta sense. Now who wants to jump on the wagon with me?
Teetotalers unite!!!!
Don't all of you see the parallels with the gun issue?
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2001 : 14:34:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
All this talk of banning guns has really made me think about mayhem violence and death. No, not in that way.
Don't all of you see the parallels with the gun issue?
Along the lines of this:
Number of physicians in the US: 700,000.
Accidental deaths caused by physicians per year: 120,000.
Accidental deaths per physician.... 0.171 (U.S. Dept. of Health & Human
Services)
Number of gun owners in the US: 80,000,000.
Number of accidental gun deaths per year (all age groups) 1,500.
Accidental deaths per gun owner: 0.0000188 (*Benton County News Tribune on
17th of November, 1999).
Statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun
owners.
"Not everyone has a gun, but everyone has at least one Doctor."
Please alert your friends to this alarming threat. We must ban doctors
before this gets out of hand.
Remember: Guns don't kill people, doctors do!
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2001 : 15:20:11 [Permalink]
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/golf clap
hee hee, good one Valiant.
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Ma gavte la nata! |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2001 : 15:33:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Remember: Guns don't kill people, doctors do!
ROFLOL. I just happen to have a doctors appointment soon. I'm printing that out to take with me.
Thanks |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2001 : 17:00:20 [Permalink]
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If doctors were trained to do nothing but kill you bet I wouldn't want them around either.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Greg
Skeptic Friend
USA
281 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2001 : 18:22:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun
owners.
A more telling statistic would be the rates of diseased patients cured/treated per accidental death for both physicians and guns. My guess 0 for guns and >10,000 for physicians. I like the odds for physicians better.
Personally, I couldn't care less who owns a gun or why - I don't. When my children were young, I found out whose parents had guns in the house and if the people didn't act resposibly with them, my children were not allowed to play there.
I know MANY MANY people who own firearms of all types. I find it ironic that people who own guns and think that increasing the ability for police to perform more intrusive searches into homes and think that it's alright for non-violent offenders to be locked up with long senences will go totally ballistic (pun intended) at the mere critical mention of guns and the laws controlling them. IMHO Just owning a gun gives some people a feeling of power over others.
Lastly, I have been to the wake of a 10 year old child killed by accidental gunshot. I never found the experience to be particularly humorous.
Greg.
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Bozola
Skeptic Friend
USA
166 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2001 : 18:28:00 [Permalink]
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The observed mortality rate for baptists has so far been 100%.
The number of baptists who are evangelical protestants is 100%.
Coincidence?
Ban evangelical protestantism before it kills again!
Guns don't kill baptists, gods do.
Bozola
- Practicing skeet for the Rapture. |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2001 : 19:43:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
Lastly, I have been to the wake of a 10 year old child killed by accidental gunshot. I never found the experience to be particularly humorous.
I knew someone that died from an accidental gunshot wound when I was in grade school. That, believe it or not, is not the cause of my dislike of guns.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2001 : 00:17:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
The story that started this string has taken another dramatic turn: Lubbock Police Chief Ken Walker has been suspended pending an investigation of Sgt. Cox's death.
Ultimately Chief Walker is responsible for the officers on the police force. However, it's unfortunate they are looking to this as an excuse to get rid of him. Intelligent Chiefs of Police are hard to find.
I personally don't own a gun anymore, however, when I did it was kept in a lock box. Which is probably as safe as I could have made it at the time. I may yet purchase another gun in the future. I don't know. I'd like the choice though.
quote:
Noted scholar Stephen Halbrook, Ph.D., did the legwork and concluded:
"In recent years it has been suggested that the Second Amendment protects the "collective" right of states to maintain militias, while it does not protect the right of "the people" to keep and bear arms. If anyone entertained this notion in the period during which the Constitution and Bill of Rights were debated and ratified, it remains one of the most closely guarded secrets of the eighteenth century, for no known writing surviving from the period between 1787 and 1791 states such a thesis. The phrase "the people" meant the same thing in the Second Amendment as it did in the First, Fourth, Ninth and Tenth Amendments -- that is, each and every free person."
quote:
No free man shall be debarred the use of arms. -Thomas Jefferson
Americans have the right and advantage of being armed. -James Madison
The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able may have a gun. -Patrick Henry
A summary of some of the federal gun laws...
http://www.cga.state.ct.us/ps99/rpt/olr/htm/99-r-1063.htm#topofpage
quote:
PEOPLE WHO CANNOT ACQUIRE OR POSSESS GUNS
A person cannot legally possess guns under federal law if he:
1. is under indictment for or has been convicted of a crime punishable by more than one year imprisonment,
2. is a fugitive from justice,
3. is addicted to or is using drugs illegally,
4. has been committed to a mental institution or adjudicated as mentally defective,
5. is an illegal alien,
6. was dishonorably discharged from the Armed Forces,
7. has renounced his U.S. citizenship,
8. is subject to a domestic violence restraining order, or
9. has ever been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence (18 USC § 922(g)).
Violation carries a prison term of up to 10 years (18 USC § 924(a)(2)).
quote:
GUN POSSESSION AND RESTRAINING ORDERS
Federal law prohibits people from acquiring, possessing, or transferring firearms or ammunition while subject to a domestic violence restraining order (18 USC 18 §§ 921(a)(32), 922(d)(8), and 922(g)(8)). Violators are subject to a prison term of up to 10 years (18 USC 924(a)(2)). A federal lower court has ruled that this law unconstitutionally infringes upon the Second Amendment right to bear arms and the Fifth Amendment right to due process (United States v. Emerson, N.D. Tex., No. 6:98-CR-103-C, 3/30/99, amended 4/7/99).
quote:
GUN TRANSFERS TO AND GUN POSSESSION BY MINORS
Federal law prohibits federal firearms licensees (FFLs) from transferring handguns to people under age 21 and long guns to people under age 18 (18 USC § 922(b)). Violators are subject to a prison term of up to five years (18 USC § 924(a)(1)(D)).
With exceptions, the law prohibits nonlicensees from transferring handguns to people under age 18. People under age 18 may only acquire and possess handguns with a parent or guardian's written permission for limited purposes (e.g. employment, ranching, farming, target practice, or hunting). Also, minors under age 18 who are members of the U.S. Armed Forces or National Guard can possess handguns on duty (18 USC § 922(x)). Violators are subject to a prison term of up to one year. If a violator transfers a handgun to a juvenile knowing that he intends to use it in a crime of violence, the penalty is a prison term of up to 10 years (18 USC § 924(a)(6)). The law does not address possession of long guns by minors or sales or transfers of long guns to minors by people who are not dealers.
Neither the young man who sold a weapon to Klebold's girlfriend nor the girlfriend were charged under this law. Why?
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell!
Edited by - Trish on 07/25/2001 00:19:30 |
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2001 : 07:22:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
A more telling statistic would be the rates of diseased patients cured/treated per accidental death for both physicians and guns. My guess 0 for guns and >10,000 for physicians. I like the odds for physicians better.
Good idea, but let's include the equivalent stat for firearms: rate of successful defensive use per homicide and/or accidental death. We should probably also somehow include the successful use of firearms in putting food on the table, especially in those households who rely on it as opposed to those who do it for sport/choice.
Then let's decide on what an acceptable rate is, since in reality it's not a competition between the two, but independent evaluations of two separate subjects.
quote:
Personally, I couldn't care less who owns a gun or why - I don't. When my children were young, I found out whose parents had guns in the house and if the people didn't act resposibly with them, my children were not allowed to play there.
Eminently reasonable. I do the same.
quote:
I find it ironic that people who own guns and think that increasing the ability for police to perform more intrusive searches into homes and think that it's alright for non-violent offenders to be locked up with long senences will go totally ballistic (pun intended) at the mere critical mention of guns and the laws controlling them. IMHO Just owning a gun gives some people a feeling of power over others.
Any statement is true of some people in a group. I know many many owners of firearms, too, and the vast majority do not want to give the police more intrusive search powers and are not in favor of long sentences for most non-violent offenders.
quote:
Lastly, I have been to the wake of a 10 year old child killed by accidental gunshot. I never found the experience to be particularly humorous.
Nor would I. I'm sorry for the loss and your experience.
I was the Casualty Assistance Officer for a young cadet who had been killed (along with four buddies) in the wreck of a van after their leave in Florida. There had been no drinking and no drugs. No other cars involved. Police surmise the driver simply fell asleep at the wheel. When I went to the young man's parents' house, the father was obviously distraught but unbelievably kind; he asked me to speak to his wife who was still in her bathrobe. She asked me for details which I at first refused to give, but she pressed and pressed and said "He is MY son, and it's MY family; you have no right to withhold anything from me." So I told her the details that she asked. When I finished, she quietly said "You were supposed to tell me it's a mistake; you were supposed to tell me he's alive." Then she walked away.
quote:
If doctors were trained to do nothing but kill you bet I wouldn't want them around either.
By 'kill' do you mean ANY death? Successful self-defense? Hunting? Are guns for target shooting not considered here?
quote:
I knew someone that died from an accidental gunshot wound when I was in grade school. That, believe it or not, is not the cause of my dislike of guns.
I can believe it. I suffered a very serious dog bite when I was 5; my parents worried that I would be afraid of dogs for life, but I love them and get along well with most.
Growing up, I knew someone who committed suicide with a gun. I've personally known two police officers who have been shot in the line of duty; one died. In my time in a Coroner's Investigator's Office, I became familiar with several gun-related deaths--accidental, homicidal, and suicidal. I've been on duty in an ER when a distraught man drove his vehicle to the ambulance entrance and shot himself outside our door. At St. Joseph's Hospital in Denver as a Security Manager I was involved in a standoff with armed gang members who wanted to finish the job they started on a rival gang member who was being treated in one of the ER trauma rooms (that was interesting; the sight of four armed security officers, one armed manager (me) and one armed police officer did not deter them, but as soon as the cops brought in one german shepherd, they ran). I've been within 50 yards of an openly hostile North Korean patrol while at Camp Oulette on the DMZ where we all knew that if the NK's decided to attack we would automatically be written off as KIA/MIA and no help coming. I've walked unarmed down the midnight streets of NYC, Denver, Seoul, London, Frankfurt, Louisville, Tucson, Nogales, Athens, and Agua Prieta, and joined the hubbub of biker bars and upscale clubs. I've been stopped for speeding in Germany by an Uzi-toting Polizei (it was legit; I was speeding; I paid him 180DM on the spot, no receipt, and he let me go). And the only place I've ever been armed without official sanction was in Hodgenville, Kentucky on my ex-wife's farm deep in the heart of moonshine and maryjane country where the neighbors walk without regard for boundaries or fences and where a stumbled-upon still is best left alone quickly and quietly.
All of which has reinforced my initial belief that the best society is that which allows the most freedoms to its members, even those freedoms that pose potential harm. Any abridgement of freedoms must come only after a 'careful scrutiny' (to quote the Supreme Court) to determine a clear and overwhelming, overriding concern of the government. Discomfort and dislike of some portion of the population, buttressed as they are by statistics that do not convey the apocalypse claimed, does not constitute such concern.
My kids still love me.
Edited by - Garrette on 07/25/2001 07:27:56 |
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