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NumboJumbo
New Member
13 Posts |
 Posted - 05/08/2003 : 14:47:13 [Permalink]
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You lot still haven't picked up on my question as to why Spiritualists would fake the very thing they want their believers to believe in. I don't think you're seeing the full picture. You're concentrating on the micro rather than the macro picture.
Yes it's easy to pick holes in the techniques they do and so if it's that easy then why set up a religion based on something that can so easily be spotted. If the fakery is so easy to spot then why have they been going for over 150 years.
I still can't see why such a network of people (17000 in the Spiritualists movement in UK alone) can all have been duped by the fakery that occurs. The Spiritualist movement is not just about contacting the dead but also istant healing as well. If the mediumship is faked then it's not hard to imagine that their healing part is faked as well. How is it that they've duped so many people into believeing the very thing they are faking.
Please do me a favour and think it through. Imagine yourself in trying to set up a religion based on fakery. Imagine how you would get people through the front door and then stay with you week in week out. Your doing this on a shoestring as your charging just enough to cover costs. Once you've got them your then going to show them another faked thing in the guise of distant healing. You must not let it slip that you're faking it. Then you want these people to promote your fakery by getting them to be a part of the fraud. You must be careful here as you don't want people to think you are faking anything as you're going to get quite a few disgruntled members of your church. There's a good chance that people are going to blow the whistle on you if the general public and your members find out you're faking it. And so and so on. Then ask yourself why am I doing this. Whats in it for me. There seem to be alot of hurdles to cross to set this religion up.
How many of you have been to a Spiritualist church meeting by the way? |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2003 : 18:55:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by NumboJumbo
You lot still haven't picked up on my question as to why Spiritualists would fake the very thing they want their believers to believe in.
Why do they do it? There are two major reasons I can think of. One, they actually believe what they're selling. Two, they crave the power and control over others. The second is a common motivation, and it can be applied to many who fit the archetypes: priests, cult leaders, abusive partners, military officers, etc. Since the first motivation is just as likely, barring any further evidence, I hesitate to prejudge.quote:
I don't think you're seeing the full picture. You're concentrating on the micro rather than the macro picture.
Frequently, the macro is dependent on the micro. Without the details, the big picture loses coherence. quote:
Yes it's easy to pick holes in the techniques they do and so if it's that easy then why set up a religion based on something that can so easily be spotted. If the fakery is so easy to spot then why have they been going for over 150 years.
The fakery is obviously not that easy to spot, is it? Most of us don't recognize the techniques until our noses are rubbed in it. I didn't. You clearly didn't either.quote:
I still can't see why such a network of people (17000 in the Spiritualists movement in UK alone) can all have been duped by the fakery that occurs.
See my comment above.quote:
The Spiritualist movement is not just about contacting the dead but also istant healing as well. If the mediumship is faked then it's not hard to imagine that their healing part is faked as well. How is it that they've duped so many people into believeing the very thing they are faking.
Hmmm...this is a good point. If the show is a fake, then so is the healing. After a short time, people begin to realize the empty feeling left behind by the death of a loved one doesn't go away. They receive no closure, because the medium promises to contact poor dead Bobby who must be in a happier place. So they return. These people continue to hope to hear news of their dearly departed. They allow themselves to be duped, all the while putting off the entire healing process. I, for one, would love to speak to my grandfather now that I am old enough to understand him. Unfortunately, that is not possible. I came to terms with that years ago, just like Houdini did with the death of his mother (although it took him a little longer).
[ Long rambling paragraph.... ]
quote:
How many of you have been to a Spiritualist church meeting by the way?
I have. Quite fascinating. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2003 : 21:01:58 [Permalink]
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NumboJumbo wrote:quote:
You lot still haven't picked up on my question as to why Spiritualists would fake the very thing they want their believers to believe in. I don't think you're seeing the full picture. You're concentrating on the micro rather than the macro picture.
Let's say I've got an idea for a great fake perpetual-motion machine. Do I want people to know it's fake? Of course not. I want them to believe in it, so that they'll give me money to "develop" it further (since it's not quite ready yet, of course).
This is what confidence tricksters do, and it doesn't matter if the con-people also believe in the scams or not, it's still a con game. Perpetual motion machines (these days dressed up as "free energy" generators or the like), talking to the dead, Amway, faith healing, laundry balls, palm reading, driveway repair, tarot cards, bipartisan politics, remote viewing... the list goes on and on. All of these scams, in order to be "successful" (whatever your definition of 'success' is: be it power, money, followers, whatever) depend on getting people to believe in something for which there is no evidence, and making sure they keep believing, even in the face of contradictory evidence.
There was an excellent documentary about a bunch of faith healers which HBO broadcast a couple years ago. It's probably out on video now. One of the things I remember about it was a couple who took their terminally-ill child to a faith healer. The child did not get any better, and eventually died. Who did the couple blame for their child's death? The healer? No. God? Of course not. They blamed themselves. The healer had so convinced them that it was their faith which would heal their son, that when he died, they were heartbroken because they lacked enough faith in God that He (God) would do as they prayed. They were to blame, not the idiot who told them their son would be healed. If I remember correctly, they were still giving donations to the healer, months after their son died.
If that's not a powerful example of how that particular scam works (and all scams, really), then I don't know what is.
By the way, Boron10, like Houdini and his wife, my wife and I have a secret "code phrase" which will be used, if necessary, to expose sham psychics. It's simple, and visual (which is one of Jon Edward's excuses for lack of detailed data - he "sees" stuff). If even you're convinced that there's no possibility of life after death, or just of contact between this world and "the beyond," having a code phrase is sorta fun. Beyond that, it's free, and takes all of 30 seconds to do.
And, just in case your wife/partner/whatever can get in touch, James Randi's got a million bucks for the taking, right? 
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- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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jmcginn
Skeptic Friend
343 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2003 : 08:23:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
You lot still haven't picked up on my question as to why Spiritualists would fake the very thing they want their believers to believe in. I don't think you're seeing the full picture. You're concentrating on the micro rather than the macro picture.
Hogwash, I have several times addressed this very issue. Why do faith healers fake the very thing they want their believers to believe in? To get more believers and to keep the money rolling in. The fact that you continue to ignore these points makes me wonder about your objectivity in this discussion.
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If the fakery is so easy to spot then why have they been going for over 150 years.
Why has any other religious miracle claiming group existed for hundreds (or even thousands) of years? Why do we have astrologists spouting bull shit every day and psychics that charge $5.00 a minute so people can run up huge phone bills? I fail to see what is so amazing about people getting hood-winked by a religious group (or any group claiming super natural abilities). Its happened thoughout all of history and continues to happen today.
quote:
I still can't see why such a network of people (17000 in the Spiritualists movement in UK alone) can all have been duped by the fakery that occurs. The Spiritualist movement is not just about contacting the dead but also istant healing as well. If the mediumship is faked then it's not hard to imagine that their healing part is faked as well. How is it that they've duped so many people into believeing the very thing they are faking.
How many thousands of people were duped by Benny Hinn? Instant healing right there on stage on national/international TV. How many people are duped by Edwards and his talking with dead relatives gig all based on cold reading?
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Your doing this on a shoestring as your charging just enough to cover costs.
LOL, this is one of the funniest things I have heard yet. You are obviously not too well informed about the economics of churches. Once they are established (with over 17k paying customers in this case) they rake in the dough all tax free (although I am not familiar if the UK is tax free in the regards as well).
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There's a good chance that people are going to blow the whistle on you if the general public and your members find out you're faking it.
The whistle has been blown, and just like the whistle has been blown on Scientologists, it doesn't matter. People who want to believe, will believe no matter how loud the whistle. Occassionally a few will become a little dis-illusioned and leave the herd, but the trickle out rarely even compares to the flood in.
quote:
How many of you have been to a Spiritualist church meeting by the way?
I have never been to one, but I have been to several Pentacostal churches where "miracles" are performed at the end of every service. Its part of the show and your tithes are the admission price. They slay people in the spirit, they heal, they talk in tongues, they get instant revelations directly from God about a person's problems. Their shams appear no different than those of the Spiritualists church.
Also my kung-fu/chi mysticism example gives a good insight as to why (even skeptical people) will buy into something they want to be a part of and then will even become a part of the fraud act without even knowing it.
The fact that you are so amazed about this, shows little understanding of people, psychology, faith, and social pressures all tied into one big ball of flim-flam. That's no fault of your own, but its something maybe you should think through and study before getting all tied up in this. |
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NumboJumbo
New Member
13 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2003 : 12:30:37 [Permalink]
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Approx 2500 of these 17000 members pay a fee to be recognised as part of the Spiritualists movement. How much do they pay - approx £30 and thats a year. Boy is this Church rolling in money! This Church obviously hasn't heard of the economics you talk about! Read some of my previous posts about the practacalities of maintaining church halls, paying bills etc, etc by charging people £3 a shot to enter the Spiritualist session. To me the financial side just doesn't stack up especially if you take a look at the main Spiritualists website and see what their charging for courses and books. THe costs appear to be just enough to cover costs.
Am I failing to see the picture that you lot see. Yes I am but there again I think I'm seeing it from a more practical point of view. I'm always trying to relate my views to Spiritualism whilst many arguments here use other movements, organisations etc. Sure you can use these as examples of what those movements have got up to and apply it to Spiritualism but maybe just maybe Spiritualism is the exception.
If you lot think I'm missing the point then maybe, just maybe you lot are missing mine!
Thankyou.
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jmcginn
Skeptic Friend
343 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2003 : 13:14:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
Approx 2500 of these 17000 members pay a fee to be recognised as part of the Spiritualists movement. How much do they pay - approx £30 and thats a year.
1st: How did you come by these figures? How sure are you of their accuracy?
2nd: Do members also tithe or donate? Do they solicit donations at each service? Do they solicit donations from wealthy members and members who are business owners? (edited to add this->)Do they have fund raiser drives, bake sales, car washes, etc. (end edit)
quote:
THe costs appear to be just enough to cover costs.
1st: How do you know what their costs are for their merchandise? How do you know what their margin is?
2nd: How many sales do they make? Even a small margin with large sales results in large profits.
(edited to add this-->)
3rd: How much does it really cost to teach this junk (or create it for that matter)? No special materials are needed except for a suckers to hoodwink.
(end edit)
Here are a few Spiritualists web sites saling merchandise that refutes your claim of "just above cost".
http://www.fst.org/credit.htm
That's $30 to $50 per book or CD ROM plus $6 S&H plus a requst for donations. $30 or $50 for a CD ROM full of drivel? How much did it cost them to create a CD ROM full of this stuff and publish it? What $5 a peice, maybe $10 a piece (and its probably more in the range of a couple of dollars a piece). That's a huge profit margin.
http://www.carvey.fsbusiness.co.uk/
This site sales a ton of books through Amazon which they scrape some off the top of and then also sale these wonderful classes for a mere £55 to £85 (that's around 85 to 135 US $ at today's rates).
http://www.thejourneywithin.org/events.htm
This site offers a 3 day demonstrator module to advance one's mediumship for a mere $425.00 Here are their course listings: http://www.thejourneywithin.org/medium_school/fees.html
http://www.spiritualism.org/CORE/core.asp
Here is one offering online classes for a mere $125.00
Maybe you can share with me this website you have where they sale things just above cost? I am sure there are some inspiring spiritualists who would love to get good deals on this stuff.
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Yes I am but there again I think I'm seeing it from a more practical point of view.
I think you have some sort of blinders on.
quote:
I'm always trying to relate my views to Spiritualism whilst many arguments here use other movements, organisations etc. Sure you can use these as examples of what those movements have got up to and apply it to Spiritualism but maybe just maybe Spiritualism is the exception.
Well one has to use what experience they have don't they? While that may be a flaw none of the research nor evidence presented thus far indicates they are different in any way. In fact they look to be pretty much the same.
Edited for a few minor grammar corrections and few additions marked above. |
| Edited by - jmcginn on 05/09/2003 13:17:27 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2003 : 19:11:15 [Permalink]
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I think you're failing to see the truly large picture. After tooling around Google for a while, trying and failing to find a spiritualist church willing to talk about how many people they "preach" to, I did learn a few things:
1) It seems like being 'recognized' by the Spiritualist National Union is enough to be called a "Spiritualist Church." There are lots of SNU-recognized groups out there, of varying sizes.
2) At least one of those groups has exactly two people in it. They have meetings at least once a week, apparently in their own home. Any money they collect, they keep, period.
3) There are plenty of SNU groups which appear to meet in public meeting halls. The community center across the street from me rents its rooms. A room large enough for a couple hundred people would run about 15 pounds an hour. At three pounds a head, minus (say) four hours of room rental, the people running the show would net 540 pounds, or 135 pounds per hour. Split between (say) five people, that's 27 pounds/hour each, or around $43.47 an hour, a very respectable wage, considering what they are, in all likelihood, doing.
I think you are missing the overall economic picture.
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- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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