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Darwin Storm
Skeptic Friend
87 Posts |
 Posted - 06/13/2003 : 10:00:19 [Permalink]
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I am always amused when people will call behaviour they find disturbing deviant, just because they don't agree with it. I have no problem with slater stating his views, as long as he doesn't commit violent acts or try to infringe on others rights. To that extent, he can believe what he will. However, his opinion on the nature of homosexuality is just his view. Obviously his opinion greatly affects his perceptions. That is his choice. My opinion is that his emotional view on the subject obviously warps his view of reality. Its nothing new. People also discriminated against blacks and other people of color as well, for what they believed were good biological and moral reasons. Of course, most people call that racism. While homosexuals can be any race, creed, color, or either gender, they can be equally descriminated against in the same sense. If there were people being coerced against their will, or hurt, then there would be a genuinine cause for such views, but I really don't see how others sexual orientation bothers people so much, as long as its between consenting adults.
Just curious slater, is your ardent views a result of personal views, or religious?
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2003 : 10:39:14 [Permalink]
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He's not against homosexuals, but he feels threatened by them as they have "greatly adversely affected the quality of life of the rest of the inhabitants." Much like the Jews did during the Nazi reign of Germany, I'm sure.
He doesn't think he's better than them, but he's "disgusted" by their behavior. Why would someone need to feel disgusted when someone is just noticing that someone needs "help?"
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2003 : 11:19:45 [Permalink]
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I am always amused when people will call behaviour they find disturbing deviant, just because they don't agree with it.
It's called deviant behavior because it deviates from normal sane behavior, a sure symptom of mental illness or imbalance of some kind.
I have no problem with slater stating his views, as long as he doesn't commit violent acts or try to infringe on others rights.
But you do feel it necessary to comment on them and tell me how wrong I am to hold them.
Yet somehow it is never acknowledged that it is sheer hypocrisy for you to do so because you are doing exactly the same thing I am.
To that extent, he can believe what he will. However, his opinion on the nature of homosexuality is just his view.
Which seems to imply that you consider your opinion to be of more worth than my, based only on that fact that it is your opinion.
Obviously his opinion greatly affects his perceptions.
Again placing your opinion over mine, just because it's yours.
That is his choice. My opinion is that his emotional view on the subject obviously warps his view of reality. Its nothing new.
That's funny, because I think exactly the same thing about you. I think that you turn a blind eye to symptoms of a particular problem because you consider it fashionable to do so. Yet I doubt that you consider other illness that cause the victim to sexually deviate in other ways--say with poultry or corpses--to be the suffers "right" to have.
People also discriminated against blacks and other people of color as well, for what they believed were good biological and moral reasons. Of course, most people call that racism.
Astonishing!!?? Are you saying that being of African decent is an illness? Or are you just trying to present yourself as being morally superior?
While homosexuals can be any race, creed, color, or either gender, they can be equally descriminated against in the same sense.
Not here in San Francisco. Quite the opposite is true. They have such political power that they are afforded special privileges.
If there were people being coerced against their will, or hurt, then there would be a genuinine cause for such views, but I really don't see how others sexual orientation bothers people so much, as long as its between consenting adults.
Strawman. It was never claimed that their "sexual orientation" was the problem. It is just one symptom of their illness. It is the aberrant behavior they exhibit which effects the quality of life in my community.
Just curious slater, is your ardent views a result of personal views, or religious?
I am an Atheist. My views have been arrived at through observation. Yours it would appear have been reached because of social pressure to hold this specific view. The consistent use of the same catch phrases, same strawmen, and same vicious attacks are a give away that you are not demonstrating independent thought.
Tell me--Medical science has recently made advances that would allow them to completely eliminate dwarfism. There are a number of "Little People" who are violently opposed to this. Their contention is that it represents dwarfism as being something "wrong" with a person.
The same story has been in the news, but about preventing deafness in newborns. Deaf advocates want children to be born deaf because they don't want deaf people to be treated like second class citizens with their deafness making them freaks of nature. In your opinion should babies be spared these birth defects or should the "height orientation" and their "hearing orientation" be "respected"?
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2003 : 11:56:32 [Permalink]
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Are you saying that Dwarfs shouldn't get married? Are you saying you are "disgusted" by dwarfs?
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Fireballn
Skeptic Friend
Canada
179 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2003 : 19:43:17 [Permalink]
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| How many circles are we going to debate in? please...... |
If i were the supreme being, I wouldn't have messed around with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers 8 o'clock day one!
-Time Bandits- |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2003 : 23:06:05 [Permalink]
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Slater wrote:quote:
It's called deviant behavior because it deviates from normal sane behavior, a sure symptom of mental illness or imbalance of some kind.
I think that statement gives us all the right to call you a 'deviant' and hope you get the proper care for your mental illness: interacting with gorillas.quote:
Yet I doubt that you consider other illness that cause the victim to sexually deviate in other ways--say with poultry or corpses--to be the suffers "right" to have.
Actually, if someone wants to be a chicken molester or necrophiliac - with chickens or corpses that are legally theirs - why should anyone else care? "Whatever creams your Twinkie" is the phrase that comes to mind. I'd be interested if anyone could tell me why there are laws in various states which prohibit sex with horses and other livestock. And I mean good reasons, and not just "it's disgusting." If disgust were a good legal basis, both the Republicans and Democrats would have been outlawed by now.
And now, onto Slater's so-far-unchallenged claims:quote:
They have such political power that they are afforded special privileges.
Cite?quote:
Medical science has recently made advances that would allow them to completely eliminate dwarfism.
Cite? (Note: I'm an avid news listener, and haven't heard squat about this Nobel-level medicine.)quote:
Deaf advocates want children to be born deaf...
Make that "Some deaf advocates..." and you'd be correct. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Darwin Storm
Skeptic Friend
87 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2003 : 23:22:38 [Permalink]
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Slater, the reason why I am harping on you is that you make alot of statements based on the assumption that homsexuality is deviant. Now, in any logical arguement, it is neccesary to define a position and your assumptions. Obviously you homosexuality doesn't appeal to you. That is fine. However, you seem to associate your dislike of the practice with the mental condition of anyone who is homosexual. m
That is where my point about racism came in. Being black isn't a sickness. Being an ingnorant person who hates others because they are different from you is a sickness.
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"If there were people being coerced against their will, or hurt, then there would be a genuinine cause for such views, but I really don't see how others sexual orientation bothers people so much, as long as its between consenting adults."
Strawman. It was never claimed that their "sexual orientation" was the problem. It is just one symptom of their illness. It is the aberrant behavior they exhibit which effects the quality of life in my community.
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If homosexuality isn't about sexual orientation, then what is it about, considering sexual preference is the defining feature of "homosexuality". hmmmmm Yea, stram man....
And if homosexuality isn't about sexual orientation, what is this underlying "illness", since you previous called homsexuality the illnesss. The problem is that you aren't arguing from a rational position, but one of emotion.
I could see it if your arguement was that homosexuality isn't normal, since the primary reason for sex is reproduction. However, you aren't trying to argue the reasons why. Obviously you have a dislike for the practice, and seem to think that homosexuals are deviants. I would like to see your points for this assertion. It shouldn't be hard, you seem passionate about the subject. Obviously, the reasons aren't religious, so I must assume that you have other reasons for your belief. Your personal dislike doesn't qualify as proof of deviancy.
Now, forget the pc bs. Do you have a have good support for your statments, or is it just a matter of personal disgust? |
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Darwin Storm
Skeptic Friend
87 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2003 : 23:25:52 [Permalink]
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| By the way, if the arguement was that homosexuality is deviant because it doesn't produce offspring, then all forms of oral sex, masturbation, and any form of birth control would be considered deviant. However, human sexuality isn't merely about reproduction. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2003 : 00:03:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Darwin Storm
Being an ingnorant person who hates others because they are different from you is a sickness.
That doesn't exactly make sense to me.
Hatred is an emotion. ARE You saying that humans should only have happy, la de da, every day is a beautiful day, dulled to the senses only pleasent thoughts? How can having various feelings, good or bad be a sickness? I don't think hate can nor should be outlawed into isolation. Life is a mixture of many experiences. Just because you can't stop it, doesn't mean you can call it sick.
Oh, unless you are using sick as a metaphor of ingnorance and trying to cure it, is education.
Whoops, got carried away and forgot to ask, if one hates but not out of ingnorance then is that ok? It just seems that so many people don't like to hear someone say they dislike anything, as if it's so wrong to do that. |
| Edited by - Snake on 06/14/2003 00:14:32 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2003 : 03:47:12 [Permalink]
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Hate and disgust are different than preference.
quote:
That doesn't exactly make sense to me.
Hatred is an emotion. ARE You saying that humans should only have happy, la de da, every day is a beautiful day, dulled to the senses only pleasent thoughts? How can having various feelings, good or bad be a sickness? I don't think hate can nor should be outlawed into isolation. Life is a mixture of many experiences. Just because you can't stop it, doesn't mean you can call it sick.
Oh, unless you are using sick as a metaphor of ingnorance and trying to cure it, is education.
Whoops, got carried away and forgot to ask, if one hates but not out of ingnorance then is that ok? It just seems that so many people don't like to hear someone say they dislike anything, as if it's so wrong to do that.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 06/14/2003 04:06:16 |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2003 : 04:05:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
The statement which the AMA made was that because of the political volatility of the issue they were not going to offer an opinion on whether or not homosexuality were a mental illness.
http://www.psych.org/pract_of_psych/copptherapyaddendum83100.cfm
http://www.apa.org/pubinfo/answers.html
http://www.glsenco.org/General%20resources/organizations/ama.htm
Just wanted to clear that one up. Above are the official positions of the APA, the other APA and the AMA. Notice the plain English used by both APA's to say that homosexuality is not considered a mental illness. Seems pretty darned opinionated to me. Bad APA's!
I realize this thread is supposed to be about same sex marriages, and it appears that the split generally falls somewhere along the lines of one's personal views of the morality of same sex relationships. This is where I must jump ship. I just don't find it within my 'give a damn mentality' when it comes to forcing my own veiw of morality on others. I may wish to debate the issue, and try to get others to see it my way, but I see no reason to bring a person's love life into our courts, our legislatures, or least of all law enforcement.
However, I am curious about how others may feel about bisexuality and polyamory, but I guess that's a subject for another thread.
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"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2003 : 04:22:01 [Permalink]
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| I forgot to mention that the AMA need not make an official opinion on this subject as Slater stated. However, this seems only to be a political stance. The AMA appears to treat homosexuality in much the same way as it does any other events in the lives of their patients. They intend to address the special needs and considerations of all groups of people from office workers to laborers, or from policeman to couch potatoes. |
"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2003 : 06:09:02 [Permalink]
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| Even if it were some kind of incurable mental illness, same sex marriages still make sense. Why stop them? If Napoleon was in the military then he's entitled to GI benefits. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 06/14/2003 06:09:33 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2003 : 11:09:04 [Permalink]
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I might as well weigh in on this since it's not going to go away.
First off, I have no problem with same sex marriages. In fact, I support the idea. I cannot see any logical reason to bar people who are in love to marry. Also, I think it's completely irrelevant why some people are gay and some are straight with regard to this issue. Gay people just are and it is unlikely that they will wake up one day and become straight. Same sex sexual orientation should not be a barrier to any rights at all. Gays should be free to make the same mistakes I have...
Regarding Slaters opinion, he has the right to have it. I think he is a bit wrong headed on this one but then I'm sure he thinks I am too. I have had extended visits to San Francisco and have lived in the Castro for a time. We have a very large gay community here too, in West Hollywood. I think these communities just add to the cultural diversity of both Los Angeles and San Francisco. I don't see the negative.
Slater mentioned the political influence of the gay community in San Francisco. Well, that's just the breaks for him. There are many of us who have to deal with a government that we don't like. That's democracy for you. Since my brother is gay and lives in San Francisco (a writing professor at San Francisco State) I take solace in the knowledge that his vote cancels out Slaters on these kind of issues... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Darwin Storm
Skeptic Friend
87 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2003 : 13:15:59 [Permalink]
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Snake, if you are going to quote me, at least address the quote. Hatred is an emotion, and a natural one at that. However, simply hating people because they are different is a sickness. That is what I said. If someone beats the crap out of you, or your spouse cheats on you, those are events that I think quite reasonable evoke hatred. However, when people hate whole groups of people, the vast majority you haven't meet, seems to be a bit of sickness.
If they were hurting other people, I could see a cause. However, the whole thread is about homosexual marriages, where obviously both people are adult participants of free will who wish to marry.
If we were talking about murders, rapists, etc, who knowingly violate others rights, a resounding judgement against that group would be understanbable. However, since homosexuality is merely a sexual preference, I am astounded at the hatred it can inspire.
Knowning someones sexual preference tells you almost nothing about that person. If its between two consenting adults , or more, I really don't give a rats ass. I might not approve, but its not like what other people do in their own bedrooms should matter.
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