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Big Ken
New Member
3 Posts |
 Posted - 08/20/2003 : 04:08:33
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Hullo
This is not spam.
I'm involved in a lengthy discussion on miracles with a loony Catholic on the rammy forum at www.firstfoot.com
Firstfoot is a site devoted to iconoclasty within Scottish Culture.
The loony is from the US.
We've already banned this clown from the moderated forums where he insists on posting religious dogma.
We do have a deliberately unmoderated forum, which does not require registration, where we allow fights, and he's been arguing black was white in there.
I'm here to ask if any of you have good links to miracle debunking sites with specific references.
I found this one quite helpful, but I need more examples, especially on Lourdes, and any saints that can be discredited.
http://indiabroad.rediff.com/news/2002/oct/19teres1.htm
THanking you all in advance.
Big Ken
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Edited by - Big Ken on 08/20/2003 04:10:52
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2003 : 05:42:11 [Permalink]
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Hi Ken, and welcome to SFN!
I don't have what you're looking for at hand, although a little later today, I'll search. I'm afraid this is not really a religion refuting site, although various scriptures and similiar superstitions get a beating, now and then.
You might ask this guy (of course he's from the US. Aren't most if not all of them?) for emperical evidence to support his claim(s), and not accept hand-waving or bible-shouting (the usual debating stratedgy of the fundie). In fact, tell him srtaight out that this sort of thing is not evidence, it's mere noise and unacceptable in debate. Evidence is all.
I seem to recall reading something on Lourdes a while back. I'll see if I can find it.
Heh, in the meantime, you might want to get his blood pressure up to an entertaining level by quoting him my signature. Indeed, you might want to send him here. Some of the denizens, more knowledgable (and vicious) than I, could use a little fresh meat. 
Again, welcome! Hope you enjoy the ride!
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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| Edited by - filthy on 08/20/2003 05:45:51 |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2003 : 07:20:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Big Ken
Hullo
This is not spam.
I'm involved in a lengthy discussion on miracles with a loony Catholic on the rammy forum at www.firstfoot.com
Firstfoot is a site devoted to iconoclasty within Scottish Culture.
The loony is from the US.
We've already banned this clown from the moderated forums where he insists on posting religious dogma.
We do have a deliberately unmoderated forum, which does not require registration, where we allow fights, and he's been arguing black was white in there.
I'm here to ask if any of you have good links to miracle debunking sites with specific references.
I found this one quite helpful, but I need more examples, especially on Lourdes, and any saints that can be discredited.
http://indiabroad.rediff.com/news/2002/oct/19teres1.htm
THanking you all in advance.
Big Ken
Big Ken,
Welcome to the forum. This site usually refutes religion disguising as science such as young earth creationism. Miracles are a rather odd because they are so subjective. Most can be discounted as embellishments by the locals to generate themselves a Saint and bring some sort of notriety and the attendant economical boon from pilgrims. Ancient miricles as described by the Bible often times are methods to teach the mythology of Christianity to children and impart a moral code.
There is no real proof of their existance. Miracles, like dogma, are a theological construct and as such are non-falsafiable.
You could always ask him why he puts so much faith in the Papacy due to it's less than holy record of assassination attempts, power struggles, and editing of the Bible. You can also ask him if he became a Jew before becoming a Catholic.
Herein lies the basic problem. Peter (alledged first Pope, made so by the Roman government when Christianity was enforced by the Roman state and Rome wanted to retain primacy in the religion instead of transferring it to the Palestinian lands) argued against Paul that people had to be Jews to become Christians. Peter lost this arguement and due to hard feelings between Paul and Peter, Peter was sent to Rome during a time of religious oppression by the Roman state against Christianity. Paul then stops mentioning Peter at all.
Then there was the time of three Popes all of which were trying to kill one another and the time of the Bablyonian Captivity where the Bible was finally edited for the last time in 1309 to insert the phrase in Revelations which proscribes editing the Bible.
I will include one link to CISCOP where some recent "miracles" are debunked.
http://www.csicop.org/si/9909/santo.html
One thing to consider is why miracles post Bible are necessary. It is required by the Catholic Church that Saints are sources of miracles. Saint Olav oppressively forced Christianity upon Norway. He was killed in battle. Miracles were attributed to him and he was declared a saint. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2003 : 08:28:32 [Permalink]
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Here's a general history of the Lourdes phenomena and the Bernadette chippy. This story is far too pat and even it‘s author seems to have reservations. Historically, the Church(s) has shown it's self to not be above such things as deceit and fraud.
http://hesemann.watchers.ca/bernadette.html
The Skeptical Dictionary might provide help, although I'd dig a little deeper.
http://www.angelfire.com/rebellion2/skepticaldictionary/
Here's a site that, while pretty general, might provide a bit of ammo.
http://homepages.at/slush/evol/supernat.htm
Alas, I couldn't find the site I'd read. Perhaps it's been taken down for whatever reason.
Dealing with this sort of thing, it must be asked that if the waters of Lourdes have healing powers, why then is it not bottled and sent out to the world? Pretty damned stingy of them, if you ask me.
I am never failed to be appalled and amused when I read a story of great crowds flocking to see the likeness of Mary discovered in a dirty window, a rust streak on a fuel tank, or a rotted-out stump. How they know exactly what the lady looked like is a mystery to me. They could be seeing, not the (alledged)Virgin, but a likeness of Typhoid Mary (a very real person), accidental natural phenomena being what they are.
For an April Fools gag, I once was tempted to make this sort of an impression on a dried cow pie and place it in an appropriate spot. Perhaps I will yet.
The long and short of it is, people see what they want to see, and usually it is colored by their strongly held beliefs. It matters not at all if these beliefs are codswallop; to the believer they are the unvarnished Truth. Many are pretty aggressive about it.
Do let us know how it goes.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Big Ken
New Member
3 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2003 : 04:46:28 [Permalink]
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Thank you guys for your welcome.
I'll follow your ideas up and let you know.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2003 : 07:36:04 [Permalink]
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I've finally gotten a look at the forum Big Ken mentioned. It's interesting and kind'a neat, but pretty esoteric. They have a lot of fun with accents that no one without Scottish ancestry could possibly comprehend without years of study. Especally we of Huguenot extraction, who have stumbled off on an alternant, social (evolutionary?)path from almost everybody, and comprehend little of anything that's not eatable, dirnkable, smokable, or......... nevermind.
I'd reccommend a visit.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Big Ken
New Member
3 Posts |
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Red
New Member
1 Post |
Posted - 08/22/2003 : 04:51:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
I've finally gotten a look at the forum Big Ken mentioned. It's interesting and kind'a neat, but pretty esoteric. They have a lot of fun with accents that no one without Scottish ancestry could possibly comprehend without years of study. Especally we of Huguenot extraction, who have stumbled off on an alternant, social (evolutionary?)path from almost everybody, and comprehend little of anything that's not eatable, dirnkable, smokable, or......... nevermind.
I'd reccommend a visit.
Yes, do come and see us, we need all the help we can get to burst Farty's bubble. We'll have peace for about four weeks, but as there's no god to hear our prayers, I'm quite sure he'll be back.
Dinna fash ur let 'Weegian' pit ye aff. We wilna fecht wi ye fur spikkin Inglis. Come awa in an jine us.
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Polwarth
New Member
United Kingdom
1 Post |
Posted - 08/22/2003 : 06:07:43 [Permalink]
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Hi
I am another Firstfooter...... Our ability to speak broad Scots, does not mean that we do not know how to write in English!
Get yersels ower tae see us.... Aebdi's welcome...
Which translates
Please visit our site, everybody is welcome   |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2003 : 08:00:32 [Permalink]
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Sorry to jump in here late. Welcome to SFN, Big Ken, Red and Polwarth. Here is a link to my favorite resource on all things paranormal, and everything ells that should be looked at with a skeptical eye. It is well layed out and easy to navigate. Enjoy the Skeptic Dictionary:
http://skepdic.com/
http://skepdic.com/saint.html
I ran a search there on Audrey Santo and came up with
five articles on her. I would have included the link but it broke up
for some reason....
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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