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ktesibios
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
 Posted - 12/05/2003 : 23:02:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Oh, come on, ktesibios! Such a tease. Do the crop-circle ratios match better with a just intonation, or do the numbers still need to be fudged?
More importantly, do aliens use just intonation for their music?
My guess is that people laying out crop circle plans find it easier to stick to simple proportions- I haven't heard of a crop golden section yet. Who wants to try to measure out irrational numbers in the middle of the night in a wheat field?
Perhaps a crop-stomping group might also think that including simple, obvious numerical relationships in their designs is a good way to set the hook in the cerealologist types.
As for alien music- I hopes to goodness they have a better knack for intonation that some of the alleged humans I've recorded.  |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2003 : 06:37:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ktesibios quote:
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave W.
Oh, come on, ktesibios! Such a tease. Do the crop-circle ratios match better with a just intonation, or do the numbers still need to be fudged?
More importantly, do aliens use just intonation for their music?
My guess is that people laying out crop circle plans find it easier to stick to simple proportions- I haven't heard of a crop golden section yet. Who wants to try to measure out irrational numbers in the middle of the night in a wheat field?
It's all in the preparation. The best way to prepare is to measure up pieces of rope, and tie knots on them and label each knot for each purpose. That way you can easily reuse the rope for different diameters. And in such a case, the golden section shouldn't be a problem.
quote:
Perhaps a crop-stomping group might also think that including simple, obvious numerical relationships in their designs is a good way to set the hook in the cerealologist types.
As for alien music- I hopes to goodness they have a better knack for intonation that some of the alleged humans I've recorded.
I'm surprised noone has mentioned prime numbers yet. Are they too simple? |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2003 : 09:28:15 [Permalink]
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Crop Circle cerial anyone?
http://www.cropcirclecereal.com/
quote:
From the site:
CEREAL PRODUCT
The product itself, can be promoted as being made from grain where crop circles generally appear -- wheat, barley, rye. The taste should, of course, be pleasing to the palate. To keep the product all natural would be ideal, though perhaps not as practical due to reduced shelf life. The shape(s) should be based on several of the simpler formations or could possibly be designed like a UFO. The images could be stamped on flat squares or triangles also.
If possible, actual grain from a certifiably genuine circle formation can be obtained and the cereal could contain a small percentage of this. Another possibility -- special collector's boxes containing this grain could be sold as a novelty item -- a powerful marketing "hook".
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2003 : 11:09:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
Crop Circle cerial anyone?
http://www.cropcirclecereal.com/
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> From the site:
CEREAL PRODUCT
The product itself, can be promoted as being made from grain where crop circles generally appear -- wheat, barley, rye. The taste should, of course, be pleasing to the palate. To keep the product all natural would be ideal, though perhaps not as practical due to reduced shelf life. The shape(s) should be based on several of the simpler formations or could possibly be designed like a UFO. The images could be stamped on flat squares or triangles also.
If possible, actual grain from a certifiably genuine circle formation can be obtained and the cereal could contain a small percentage of this. Another possibility -- special collector's boxes containing this grain could be sold as a novelty item -- a powerful marketing "hook".
Damn Kil, not so loud. Do you want us to be afflicted with that, too?
For myself, I don't care. I only have to tend the younger grandbeasts once in a while. But take a little pity upon those who still have them 24/7. 
'Tis a pretty decent idea though, ain't it. I'll bet it'd sell. And, it might supply gainful employment to some of our nocturnal delinquents, juvenile and otherwise.
I take back my objection. it's a good idea! 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2003 : 21:24:12 [Permalink]
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Dr. Mabuse wrote:quote:
I'm surprised noone has mentioned prime numbers yet. Are they too simple?
No, actually. According to Carl Sagan, if an alien intelligence were trying to communicate with us, they'd probably use a prime number sequence in their messages somewhere to clearly indicate that the message is not due to some natural phenomenon. No natural event that I'm aware of, for example, cycles through the primes between 2 and 97, and then repeats.
Of course, Sagan was talking about radio transmissions, and not flattened grain, but I think the general principle still holds.
For me, the crop circles are nothing more than works of art by ordinary humans, some executed better than others (the circles this thread began with look fairly sloppy to me). None of the ones I've seen have been surprising in any way, and many, if not most, are implementable with compass and ruler (which is what a knotted rope and two pieces of rebar will give you).
The idea that humans cannot create crop circles was once based upon the way the grain was folded over, sometimes "braided." It has been shown through demonstration that flattening it with a board is sufficient, as attested to by cerealogical experts. So now, we are getting reports of mysterious radiation, chromosome damage, and odd growth in what appears to be an attempt to continue the "controversy," such as it is. But, the researchers reporting these effects are lone voices, not apparently having the sense to send stuff to independent labs for verification (or if they did, I missed it).
They also seem to have called in no skeptics to assist with a "hostile" analysis of the same data, using separately-collected samples. Had honest skeptics found the same results in pristine samples, it would have gone a long way towards proving the investigators' point. But, the opportunity was lost (probably through short-sightedness). Hopefully, these particular high-school kids will recreate their work next season, and the skeptic experts in this field (haha!) will be there to sample and test, as well. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2003 : 02:58:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Hopefully, these particular high-school kids will recreate their work next season, and the skeptic experts in this field (haha!) will be there to sample and test, as well.
I'd so much enjoy that. Just think of it: Committing a crime, then brag about it and, even then, get away with it.
Ooops, suddenly I'm getting flashes of other instances where this is currently happening...
Where's the human race going? |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2003 : 04:39:03 [Permalink]
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Might we assume this will be the last, 'official' word on the subject?
quote:
Solano County residents can feel free to start forming their mashed potatoes into little likenesses of mountains again. It looks like we really did have an encounter of the third kind last summer.
http://www.timesheraldonline.com/articles/2003/12/06/columnists/dan_judge/danjudge.txt
Why am I following this nonsense? Could it be that I need a life?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2003 : 16:06:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Gotta love this (from that last article Filthy linked to):<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">We can only wonder just how much four teenagers are enjoying the fact that they have now essentially pulled off two hoaxes for the price of one.
[/quote]I was just about to post this punch line, when I saw that you beat me to it.
It's a great conclusion though, isn't it? |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
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PruplePanther
Skeptic Friend
USA
79 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2003 : 13:04:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Might we assume this will be the last, 'official' word on the subject?
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Solano County residents can feel free to start forming their mashed potatoes into little likenesses of mountains again. It looks like we really did have an encounter of the third kind last summer.
http://www.timesheraldonline.com/articles/2003/12/06/columnists/dan_judge/danjudge.txt
Why am I following this nonsense? Could it be that I need a life?
WHAT'S WRONG WITH THE QUOTE MACHINERY?
ANYWAYS: why aare u following it, filthy? maybe this might help answer
From filthy's linked article
quote:
Yet the investigation team has presented a compelling case.
For starters, former NASA engineer Jean-Noel Aubrun noted that the crop circles pattern was simply too geometrically complex.
"The level of sophistication was quite high and I don't think high school students could have done it - especially considering the state of education these days," he said.
(Ouch. That one must have put a dart in the heart of every teacher in Solano County.)
yea, filth, ole boy. High school kids DO have a good imagination. They imagined the headlines when THEY 'fessed to having done the near impossible...made the crop circles. AHHHH. The GLORY. the GIRLS. The underaged drinking from admiring overagers.
And then donw more into ur article is this bit, in the best tradition of Sherlock hisself and every other modern 'crime investigator'
quote:
And here's the capper. For the past several months, kitchen contractor and Psi Applications team leader Steve Moreno of Fairfield has invited the teenagers to recreate the pattern on a similarly moonlit night. They have repeatedly turned down the offer.
In fact isn't the ability to reproduce an experiment at the heart of much of modern science? Yet the 'hoaxers' escaped and evaded the invitation.
ur article ENDS with
quote:
They say teenagers were given the chance to commit senseless property damage? With no repercussions? And turned it down?
All right, that's it! The crop-stomping wannabes are obviously lying through their teeth. It must have been farmers from Mars.
We can only wonder just how much four teenagers are enjoying the fact that they have now essentially pulled off two hoaxes for the price of one.
it may be tongue-in-cheek as many news writers HAVE TO be to get someting past their editor, but....
I used to sneer and snicker at crop circles but now i'm REALLY beginning to wonder. |
"If I don't know where we are, I can't plot a course home." Major Carter, SG-1 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2003 : 14:13:53 [Permalink]
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PruplePanther wrote:quote:
In fact isn't the ability to reproduce an experiment at the heart of much of modern science? Yet the 'hoaxers' escaped and evaded the invitation.
You're going to have to ask the teens about their motivation(s) for saying "no" before you can draw any firm conclusions about why they refused. Certainly, had they accepted, I would be interested by the success or failure of their reproduction, but refusal doesn't automatically mean "we can't do it again." And actually, according to another one of the linked articles in this thread, the kids have agreed to do it again, but they at least need to wait for more wheat to grow.
Of course, Moreno probably knows of a whole slew of crop-circle nay-sayers who'd be more then willing to make the attempt. And what better method of proving the kids were lying than by demonstrating that adults who are committed to proving Moreno wrong can't do so because it's too dark? And if the adults could do it, Moreno could simply claim that they're smarter than the kids. It's a proposition which he can't outright lose (at worst, the results would be equivocal), yet I see no hint that he's even thought of it.
By the way, my guess as to what the BOL which hovered "inches" above the crops was, is a flashlight. Damn kids were cheating! |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2003 : 15:11:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Dr. Mabuse wrote:quote:
I'm surprised noone has mentioned prime numbers yet. Are they too simple?
No, actually. According to Carl Sagan, if an alien intelligence were trying to communicate with us, they'd probably use a prime number sequence in their messages somewhere to clearly indicate that the message is not due to some natural phenomenon. No natural event that I'm aware of, for example, cycles through the primes between 2 and 97, and then repeats.
What I was thinking of was crop-circles based on prime numbers. It'd make more sense than mandelbrot equations, if not as arty... |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2003 : 16:39:13 [Permalink]
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Dr. Mabuse wrote:quote:
What I was thinking of was crop-circles based on prime numbers. It'd make more sense than mandelbrot equations, if not as arty...
Right, I understood that. If aliens were trying to communicate with us via crop circles, they probably would, per Sagan's reasoning, use prime numbers in them, somehow. That what we see is, instead, a lot of stuff one can find gracing the pages of algorithm textbooks and/or graphic arts studios is a hint that it's more likely to be human art than alien signatures.
Of course, I'm no expert on crop circle artworks. There may, indeed, be some based on prime numbers. |
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Evidently, I rock!
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PruplePanther
Skeptic Friend
USA
79 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2003 : 12:25:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
PruplePanther wrote:quote:
In fact isn't the ability to reproduce an experiment at the heart of much of modern science? Yet the 'hoaxers' escaped and evaded the invitation.
You're going to have to ask the teens about their motivation(s) for saying "no" before you can draw any firm conclusions about why they refused. Certainly, had they accepted, I would be interested by the success or failure of their reproduction, but refusal doesn't automatically mean "we can't do it again." And actually, according to another one of the linked articles in this thread, the kids have agreed to do it again, but they at least need to wait for more wheat to grow.
Of course, Moreno probably knows of a whole slew of crop-circle nay-sayers who'd be more then willing to make the attempt. And what better method of proving the kids were lying than by demonstrating that adults who are committed to proving Moreno wrong can't do so because it's too dark? And if the adults could do it, Moreno could simply claim that they're smarter than the kids. It's a proposition which he can't outright lose (at worst, the results would be equivocal), yet I see no hint that he's even thought of it.
By the way, my guess as to what the BOL which hovered "inches" above the crops was, is a flashlight. Damn kids were cheating!
I'm really skeptical about your argument here Dave. You dont sound much better than one of those 'creationists' trying to pretend that everything was created in 6 24-hour days. Nothing but belief based on faith and wishful thinking. Hou can you avoid
quote:
They say teenagers were given the chance to commit senseless property damage? With no repercussions? And turned it down?
All right, that's it! The crop-stomping wannabes are obviously lying through their teeth. It must have been farmers from Mars.
We can only wonder just how much four teenagers are enjoying the fact that they have now essentially pulled off two hoaxes for the price of one.
It's almost PAINFULLY obvious that the teens were jumping on a hay-wagon of publicity. A hoax. They DIDN'T DO IT. And I'm really starting to doubt that ANY hoaxer made most of the crop circles. And if they WEREN'T made by hoaxers, who DID make them? |
"If I don't know where we are, I can't plot a course home." Major Carter, SG-1 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2003 : 18:33:04 [Permalink]
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PruplePanther wrote:quote:
I'm really skeptical about your argument here Dave. You dont sound much better than one of those 'creationists' trying to pretend that everything was created in 6 24-hour days. Nothing but belief based on faith and wishful thinking. Hou can you avoidquote:
They say teenagers were given the chance to commit senseless property damage? With no repercussions? And turned it down?
All right, that's it! The crop-stomping wannabes are obviously lying through their teeth. It must have been farmers from Mars.
We can only wonder just how much four teenagers are enjoying the fact that they have now essentially pulled off two hoaxes for the price of one.
How can I avoid the above? I don't even try to avoid it. I embrace it. I doubt I'm the only one who found the sarcasm in what you've quoted, along with the non-sarcastic and very funny final line.
And from Judge's earlier column, we can read:quote:
It was pretty clear from the start that the circles discovered in farmer Larry Balestra's wheat field were a con job. It was even more obvious when a more ragged and amateurish configuration - which from the sky looks like a bad likeness of a giant caterpillar - was found in a Vacaville corn field a week later.
The logical mind would be less inclined to see these strange artifacts as signs of alien visitation than as evidence that kids have way too much time on their hands.
And then, in the column you quoted from, Judge mocks the so-called "investigators."quote:
It's almost PAINFULLY obvious that the teens were jumping on a hay-wagon of publicity. A hoax. They DIDN'T DO IT.
To put my prior post in other words, if the only evidence you've got for such an assertion is that the kids refused to recreate their work, then all you've got is an assumption that they didn't accept because they couldn't do it again. As I said, you'd have to ask the kids.
In a different story about the kids and the circle, more comes to light (my emphasis in bold):quote:
One of the teens then told a local newspaper, in effect, that's our story and we're sticking to it. He and his friends decided to try making the crop circles after watching a show about them on The Discovery Channel and they're willing to duplicate the feat, Casey Brossard said.
'We want to interview them, in person or by phone,' Moreno said on Thursday. 'There are a few very key questions we can ask that should resolve things.
'We're not out to fry or demean them,' Moreno said.
Moreno said the boys have not yet agreed to be interviewed by Psi Applications.
Recreating the crop circles would have to wait until June when the wheat grows again.
Given Moreno's intent and agenda, it is "painfully obvious" to me that Moreno never even spoke to the boys, much less "invited the teenagers to recreate the pattern on a similarly moonlit night." He might have made some sort of public invitation, but who's to say the boys have even heard it? Not that it matters, since the wheat won't be ready for another six months.quote:
And I'm really starting to doubt that ANY hoaxer made most of the crop circles.
If you're talking about a single hoaxer (or group) making most of the crop circles which have been documented, you're absolutely correct to doubt it. Of course, nobody is claiming that.quote:
And if they WEREN'T made by hoaxers, who DID make them?
You might consider leaving the cart behind the horse. First figure out if they are definitely not man-made (and 'most' probably are), then try to figure out what might have created them. Otherwise, you're jumping into Creationist territory, in which we first try to figure out how God did something, without previously figuring out if God even exists. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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