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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 12/17/2003 :  07:05:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
C'88, I don't wish to sound condecending and please forgive me if I do, but your writing has improved by an order of magnitude. I don't know exactly what 'order of magnitude' means except that it's really, really big. You have not only become ledgable, but consise and interesting to read as well. Well done!

Historicly, all wars are failures for someone and quite often, everyone. The Iraqi Mess is in the latter catagory. The sins of Saddam & Sons (apologies to Redd Foxx), none of which has ever concerned our country or our population, are irrevelent -- many countries are run by right bastards whom the world would be better off without. They are ignored by us simply because they have little wealth or political position, or even much potential in the world.

Whilst I would cheerfully slit Saddam's throat, among others, with a rusty box-cutter, I would not wreck havoc upon his country just to collect his ears. Doing away with vicious tin-pot dictators, that's eradicating vermin. Unprovoked invasions of another nation is a different vial of salmonella altogether. Especally if that invasion was based upon an ever-changing series of wishful dreams and outright lies -- I find myself reminded that this last was pretty much the basis for the Nazi expansion through Europe.

The long and short of it is that the Iaqui adventure is illegal by international law (big, freakin' deal. That law is nothing short toothless, anyway) and obscene on moral grounds. 'Nuff said.

As to abortion, I'll admit that I feel a little queasy about the subject and glad that no member of my family has had one (that I know of, anyway). However, For the many reasons stated in other writings, I strongly support a womans right to choose. So, just for the hell of it, lets pose the question a little differently -- you're probably not gonna like this:

At what point does the rapidly evolving cluster of cells become an actual person and no longer a parasitic growth inflicted upon it's host by an invasive, application? Ok, that's kind'a nasty, but it's worth thinking about.

This cluster of cells takes a tremendous toll upon even a healthy woman. If she's not in quite good health, it can, and often does, kill her. Historicly, an appaling number of women have succumbed to childbirth. In places like parts of Africa, where much medical care is still pretty iffy, the percentage remains high. Here in the alledged civilized world, it's no longer something to fear, but it still happens.

Whether I like it or not, I cannot in good conscience demand that a woman bring an unwanted, possibly malformed child into a world that want's it even less.

And on an even sadder note, almost weekly, we read about a newborn found abandoned, often dead, in a dumpster or a public restroom. Is this preferable to an abortion?


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 12/17/2003 :  07:46:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
But the point of bringing up international law is that every country uses it to fit their purposes and the United States, being the most powerful country, is able to get away with using it to suit its purposes the most. If Iraq had a veto, it would never have violated any SC Resolutions.

The United States is bound by its own constitution to obey its treaties. Bush is not only an international criminal, but a criminal according to U.S. law.

It's amazing to me that Democrats are trying to see how right wing they can be in order to beat Bush. Why are we talking about winning an election against a known criminal? Why is this guy still in office?

quote:


The long and short of it is that the Iaqui adventure is illegal by international law (big, freakin' deal. That law is nothing short toothless, anyway) and obscene on moral grounds. 'Nuff said.



I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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gezzam
SFN Regular

Australia
751 Posts

Posted - 12/17/2003 :  17:21:06   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit gezzam's Homepage Send gezzam a Private Message
quote:
Was WW2 a failure because of the thousands of men that died? And the "collateral damage" as you call it. Imagine how many MORE innocent Iraqis would have died, if Sadaam had stayed in power.

So this war means that the Western nations should go in, invade and occupy every country that has an evil dictator, especially the ones with fantastic amounts of natural resources. But hang on C88, there are nations with equally evil men in power that the West assist because it suits them.

How can the “coalition of the willing: expect not to be called hypocritical when they invade Iraq stating that they are liberating an oppressed people when for the first 20 odd years of the tyrants reign they supported his actions by giving him Weapons of Mass Destruction and cash. Not only that but turning a blind eye to his atrocities......once he had outlived his usefulness they used those same weapons than they gave him as an excuse to invade and kill his people in the roughly the same numbers that he did then still have the gall to call him a bad man. What is worse, using the atrocities that they once politely ignored as another excuse to get rid of him

Notwithstanding the lies that people in power have told to their employers….you and I, the voters, to sell their little international adventure. Shamelessly using the brave people who risk their lives as photo ops so they can get re-elected.

It stinks to high heaven C88, it freakin' stinks.

Saddam was an evil man, don't get me wrong….He was unfortunately sitting on millions of barrels of “black gold”.

Anyway…. lets list just some of the mass murderers that the West supported for their own good.

quote:
Sir Hassanal Bolkiah, the Sultan of BRUNEI
General Augusto Pinochet, President of CHILE
Fulgencio Batista, President of CUBA
Maximiliano Hernandez Martinez, General of EL SALVADOR
Alfredo Cristiani, President of EL SALVADOR
Halie Selassie, Emperor of ETHIOPIA
George Papadopoulos, Prime Minister of GREECE
General Suharto, President of INDONESIA
Mohammad Reza Pahlevi, Shah of IRAN, King of Kings
General Samuel Doe, President of LIBERIA
Hussan II, King of MOROCCO
Anastasio Somoza, Sr. And Jr., Presidents of NICARAGUA
Mohammed Zia Ul-Haq, President of PAKISTAN
General Manuel Noriega, Chief of Defense forces, PANAMA
Alfredo Stroessner, President-for-Life of PARAGUAY
Ferdinand Marcos, President of the PHILIPPINES
Antonio De Oliveira Salazar, Prime Minister of PORTUGAL
Ngo Dinh Diem, President of SOUTH VIETNAM
General Francisco Franco, President of SPAIN
Chiang Kai-Shek, President of TAIWAN


That's just some of them C88, have a look around the internet and have a look for more....you will be amazed at the evil men that we have let stay in power. No liberation or "Operation Freedom" for them.....unless the dictator had outlived his usefulness....then we would go in and get rid of him killing an injuring a few thousand more innocent people in the process.

When are we going to learn that violence begets violence? We will never, ever win the war on terrorism by bombing other countries to the crapper. There is no easy way to beat terrorism, but pissing people off that don't really like us in the first place is not the way to do it.

That is my rant anyway…….

Mistakes are a part of being human. Appreciate your mistakes for what they are: precious life lessons that can only be learned the hard way. Unless it's a fatal mistake, which, at least, others can learn from.

Al Franken
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 12/18/2003 :  03:53:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
Damn Gezz! It's just past 3 am and I'm awake with back spasms again. And here you come with the short list of the World's Greatest Assholes to get my ulcer juiced up.

Thanks a whole, friggin' bunch, pal! :grouch:

The collective history of this batch of losers makes an interesting read, and a couple of them I remember quite well. I particularly remember Batista. I had a Cuban schoolmate when I was a child in FL. One Easter, I went with him to spend that holiday with his family. I remember being apalled at the condition Havana was in -- I'd never seen anything like it! The place was an armpit, dirty and crowded with ragged street vendors and beggars, some of both looking like they were starving. There was also a myriad of women that I later found out were hookers, and they too, didn't appear all that healthy. That is the reason I'm ambiviant about Castro. Commie he might be, but at least he's cleaned the country up and vastly improved the literatcy rate. The big winner, of course, was Batista, who, in grand tradition, absconded with most of the treasury (which was mostly mob money, by the bye). I firmly believe that the reason we're so pissed at Fidel is not because he's a communist, but because we had nothing to do with installing him, indeed, quite the contrary.

Interesting about the Shah of Iran. The very instant he was in trouble, Reagan sold him out. As I recall, the poor bastard (I seem to remember that he was dying of cancer at the time) asked for asylum here and nobody even answered the 'phone. I recall thinking at the time that it really doesn't pay to have us for an ally/sponser; not in the long run. Saddam is in the process learning that harsh lesson. I figger that right about now, he's wishing he'd pulled a Batista.

And Pinochet lives on. This murderous scab off a bastard's ass overthrew the democraticly elected Salvador Allende with the CIA's assistance at, it is rumored and probably true, Henry Kissenger's urging.

It is said that power corrupts, and that is true in all too many cases. As our country is and has for many years, been the most powerful in the world, when we get corrupt it's on a grand scale. Observe: the War on Terrorism has taken on a whole new meaning in just a brief time. Al Qada (sp?) seems all but forgotten as we roost, all but bogged down, in Iraq, a country that has yet to attack us and indeed, lacks the means to do so. We are choking our collective chickens and enriching Halliburton there while bin Laden, if still alive, plans more mass murder. Saddam and the dishonest and incompetant gang currently running our government was the best thing that could happen to Al Qada (sp again). Saddam, whom they despise almost as much as they hate us, is getting it in the neck and they are all but off scott free. No matter what happens in Iraq, they win, this round at least.

It is now a little after 4 am. The muscle relaxer pills the VA gave me ain't working. :snarl:

Which brings us to the question of: Wheredafuck is Osama?

I am of the opinion that he's dead. I'm thinking that he actually was stupid enough to stay in Afganistan while we turned the rubble of that unhappy land into yet finer-grained rubble, and he's buried under it. That's an excellent place for him to be. Bush has said that he's no longer revelent, and for once the smirking, little shithead is right. Al Qada (how the hell do you spell that, anyway?) is so spread out, has so many automous cells in the world that he is no longer necessary for it's operations. And it seems that no one is taking into account other organizations such as Islamic Jihad, Hamas, et al. Our children are maimed and dying in Iraq while the actual terrorists roll on.

But, Osama is relevent in one way: propaganda. Now that Saddam's current situation is lock-down, I believe that we can look forward to many reports, most if not all woven from the whole cloth, of bin Laden (another creature of our own creation, incidently).

I think it was General J.E.B. Stuart who, when asked about his success' at fighting larger armies than his own, said, "I keeps up the skeer." Or perhaps it was Bible-thumping Stonewall Jackson who said it -- my recall is a bit fuzzy, sometimes. No matter, Osama dead or lively, is perfect for 'keepin' up the skeer'. The 'skeer', I think, is likely to play a major part of the administration's election plans. I further think that it just might come back to bite them on the ass.

Wish I had some morphine. It's too early in the morning (5 am) to have to put up with this. :grumble:

Well, this long, rambling screevening has killed a couple of hours. I think I'll have another cup of the worst coffee ever, edit this a little, then try and cop a few more . Anyone who has had the masochistic patience to read through it, I thank you.


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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gezzam
SFN Regular

Australia
751 Posts

Posted - 12/18/2003 :  07:29:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit gezzam's Homepage Send gezzam a Private Message
Well filthy, after keeping you awake all morning....it would be rude of me not to point out Australia's little treasure trove in international relations....

Gough Whitlam, the Australian Prime Minister in 1974 supported General Suharto in his invasion of East Timor. It was only recently in 1989 that the then Labor government signed a deal with Jakarta to share the vast oil and natural gas deposits in the Timor Gap between Australia and East Timor. Gotta keep those General Motors Holden and Ford V8's goin' ya know....broom broom.

From 1999 onwards, we finally after 25 years of oppression for the East Timorise (sp?) then decided to "liberate" (sound familiar) those people that we let die in their thousands over the past 1/2 of a century. Thousands were killed and strangely enough we were left with the cost and risk of cleaning up the mess we helped create.


WOW......natural resources, liberation....amazing how familiar it sounds dont't it!!!!!

Mistakes are a part of being human. Appreciate your mistakes for what they are: precious life lessons that can only be learned the hard way. Unless it's a fatal mistake, which, at least, others can learn from.

Al Franken
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 12/18/2003 :  07:39:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by gezzam

Well filthy, after keeping you awake all morning....it would be rude of me not to point out Australia's little treasure trove in international relations....

Gough Whitlam, the Australian Prime Minister in 1974 supported General Suharto in his invasion of East Timor. It was only recently in 1989 that the then Labor government signed a deal with Jakarta to share the vast oil and natural gas deposits in the Timor Gap between Australia and East Timor. Gotta keep those General Motors Holden and Ford V8's goin' ya know....broom broom.

From 1999 onwards, we finally after 25 years of oppression for the East Timorise (sp?) then decided to "liberate" (sound familiar) those people that we let die in their thousands over the past 1/2 of a century. Thousands were killed and strangely enough we were left with the cost and risk of cleaning up the mess we helped create.


WOW......natural resources, liberation....amazing how familiar it sounds dont't it!!!!!




Dude, Ngo Diem was placed as leader of Vietnam after the CIA orchestrated his predicessor's assassination.

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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Renae
SFN Regular

543 Posts

Posted - 12/18/2003 :  07:51:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Renae a Private Message
I had a long reply almost finished and then my computer crashed and ate my reply for breakfast. I hate that.

I don't even remember what I said, except that:

This discussion here regarding the broader implications of American's foreign policy is what we should be reading EVERYWHERE. Unfortunately, Americans no longer see a thoughtful, meaningful discussion of American foreign policy or anything else via the mass media. What we get instead via CNN and Faux News: flag-waving jingoism, propaganda from the Pentagon, glamorization of war, and the intimate details of Jennifer Lopez's wedding gown. Argh.

How about a thoughtful analysis of WHY the US arms and supports dictators? How about a review of the implications of a first-strike policy? Heaven forbid we read stuff like that: then we'd be INFORMED voting Americans.

Was J-Lo's dress ivory or cream? Anybody remember?
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gezzam
SFN Regular

Australia
751 Posts

Posted - 12/18/2003 :  09:14:47   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit gezzam's Homepage Send gezzam a Private Message
quote:
Dude, Ngo Diem was placed as leader of Vietnam after the CIA orchestrated his predicessor's assassination.


Then the U.S supported Diem's own army, The Army of the Republic of Vietnam in overthrowing him in 1963. Another placed leader that had outlived his usefulness, he must not have had the desired effect

Mistakes are a part of being human. Appreciate your mistakes for what they are: precious life lessons that can only be learned the hard way. Unless it's a fatal mistake, which, at least, others can learn from.

Al Franken
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 12/18/2003 :  09:54:38   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
J-Lo had a dress? And who is J-Lo?

I feel a little better now that I've gotten some more sleep and the chick's not going to get busted for public nudity, although that might be interesting.

It has been said that a country gets the government it deserves. I dunno about that. What did the Iraqis ever do to get Saddam? Or the Afganis, the Talaban?

In our situation however, it seems to hold true. We deserve the lying sonofabitch Bush.

Damn filth, but you're in a really foul and nasty mood today! Where do you get off saying such a rotten thing, you bastard?!

Dig it: we as a population refuse to inform ourselves beyond the selective blather spewed forth by corporate news organs. We vote for candidates for no better reason than one might be a little prettier than another. We allow the fucking Supreme Court decide elections. We pay little or no attention to our political process. Often less than half of qualified voters care enough actually drag their sorry asses to the polls for any, given election.

As far as I am concerned, those who haven't put forth the effort to keep track of what's going on with our government should stay the hell home in November, however they might cast their ballot. Not only is their vote worthless, but it devalues the votes of the others who do keep track.

As our constitution continues to unravel, I fear that there may be a Saddam clone, or similar with a little more polish, in our not-too-distant future, assuming that he's not already here. And we'll deserve the fucker. [/Hijack]

Back to topic:

At the moment, I see no end to the insurgency in Iraq. At the moment, we are having a big, fat group hug at the capture of Saddam. But it matters not at all to Abu Iraqi, who might be estatic to see the scumbag gone, but isn't too happy about running the very real risk of being turned into collateral damage by an occupying army. His delight is further tempered by the idea that whatever government he ends up with may well be a hand seclected puppet by the government of that army, however he might vote. And he soon will be highly pissed as he sees his countries resources going to fuel the wastrel populations of those invading countries of the 'colilition'.

So, what's to do, Abu? I'm gonna gets me some more fuel for the old Kalashnikov, that's what's to do.

Death to the infidel, eh? Betcherass!

Arrrgh! Enough!


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 12/18/2003 :  10:08:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
That is true to an extent, however, the corporate media and the schools and churches that many of us have been influenced by most of our lives teach us to do what? Think?

quote:

In our situation however, it seems to hold true. We deserve the lying sonofabitch Bush.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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Maverick
Skeptic Friend

Sweden
385 Posts

Posted - 12/18/2003 :  14:59:38   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Maverick a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by creation88
Was WW2 a failure because of the thousands of men that died? And the "collateral damage" as you call it. Imagine how many MORE innocent Iraqis would have died, if Sadaam had stayed in power.


If it was a failure? I am sure it was. If a world war is not a failure, then what is? Also, imagine how many LESS innocent Iraqis would have died, if Saddam wasn't supported by the US. And, as gezzam said, the "free world" have supported tyrants in the past, and very recently too. To now hear them talk about liberation and freedom sounds VERY strange. I would like to celebrate that Saddam was captured, but I'm embarassed to say that I'm worried that if I do, the indoctrinated people and "war is the solution to everything"-people will think I turned around to support them. I don't, because I can not in my wildest imagination believe that Bush liberated the Iraqis because he wanted to spread the spirit of freedom over the world. If he wanted that, he could've avoided eroding the freedom at home, first.

"Life is but a momentary glimpse of the wonder of this astonishing universe, and it is sad to see so many dreaming it away on spiritual fantasy." -- Carl Sagan
Edited by - Maverick on 12/18/2003 15:07:04
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Woody D
Skeptic Friend

Thailand
285 Posts

Posted - 12/20/2003 :  03:09:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Woody D a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by creation88
But you will live your whole life not quite sure if you had shot the one real person.

And this is one in a hundred. And the chances are alot better than that for a baby living at conception.


That certainly is a different look at a similar story about the robot but my answer is, there are too many people on this Earth already. If we are letting them live longer through advances in medical technology then we need to control the population other ways. Abortion being one.


quote:


And before I go....all I have heard on here about Bush, is how useless going into Iraq has been. But as you all know, Sadaam Hussain was captured Sunday morning. And if you can honestly say we would have been better off staying here in the u.s, and have Sadaam still killing athletes because they lose, and killing his nephew because.......I guess he felt like it. Your just nuts if you don't think it's been a HUGE success.


That is a good point but I think the USA as well as other countries should mind their own business. Difficult, I know in the world today when everything is more interactive than ever before but why go out of ones way to boss other people around?

www.Carabao.net
As long as there's, you know, sex and drugs, I can do without the rock and roll.
Mick Shrimpton
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9675 Posts

Posted - 12/21/2003 :  20:33:06   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by creation88

OK, I'm not going to argue with you all about if a baby is or is not a human life at conception.
Well, there is not much to argue about, because I really don't understan your statement. It does not compute.
Immediatly after conception, the cell cluster is called zygote, as was sugested earlier. After that, it's called a foetus. I really don't think you call them baby until they are a screeming, smelly infant. At least everyone I've talked to say so. Why else does a mother in the third trimester say "I'm going to have a baby" Emphasis made to point out future tense. As in: it will be a baby once it is born.

quote:
We could argue for days and never come to anthing.
At least not until we have decided upon a common language where we all share the same definition for the words we use. Then we will have a foundation upon which to build a consensus.

I'm pressed for time and have to continue addressing you post later.

Cheers!

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
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Woody D
Skeptic Friend

Thailand
285 Posts

Posted - 12/21/2003 :  23:32:17   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Woody D a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Immediatly after conception, the cell cluster is called zygote, as was sugested earlier. After that, it's called a foetus. I really don't think you call them baby until they are a screeming, smelly infant. At least everyone I've talked to say so. Why else does a mother in the third trimester say "I'm going to have a baby" Emphasis made to point out future tense. As in: it will be a baby once it is born.


Very well said.

quote:

quote:
We could argue for days and never come to anthing.
At least not until we have decided upon a common language where we all share the same definition for the words we use. Then we will have a foundation upon which to build a consensus.


You have a good way with words. It takes a person who has a good understanding of more than one language to comprehend what is being said.
I live with someone from another country I see how difficult it is to come to an understanding of what is meant. A word alone in not enough. As you said, what is meant by that word is the key. I'm always yelling at Dennis to SPEAK ENGLISH (clearly)! I can't understand a word he says. Wish he could speak/understand as good as you.
You see! Clinton was right. It really does depend on the meaning of the word 'Is'.
Ok, back to abortion. I don't care when someone thinks those cells are a living human. I say kill it before it has a chance to get out into the world.

www.Carabao.net
As long as there's, you know, sex and drugs, I can do without the rock and roll.
Mick Shrimpton
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 12/22/2003 :  07:28:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by gezzam

quote:
Dude, Ngo Diem was placed as leader of Vietnam after the CIA orchestrated his predicessor's assassination.


Then the U.S supported Diem's own army, The Army of the Republic of Vietnam in overthrowing him in 1963. Another placed leader that had outlived his usefulness, he must not have had the desired effect



Nope. Diem was asking the US to leave and was pushing for reunification with North Vietnam. A choice that the US didn't like.

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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