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Woody D
Skeptic Friend

Thailand
285 Posts

Posted - 12/27/2003 :  16:51:16   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Woody D a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Renae

In other words, everybody's life experience is different, and no one is under any obligation to make the same choices YOU personally make.


Excuse me but, I do expect others to make the same choices I do and have the same knowledge to do so.
It's quite simple, if you do X than Z will happen. How difficult is that to understand?
Although if everyone thunk like I, I'd have no one to argue with, how dull would that be? And the worst thing....I'd have no one to complain about.

www.Carabao.net
As long as there's, you know, sex and drugs, I can do without the rock and roll.
Mick Shrimpton
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Woody D
Skeptic Friend

Thailand
285 Posts

Posted - 12/27/2003 :  16:59:37   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Woody D a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Take a look at any Baptist- or Pentacostal-church in the bible-belt and ask yourself: Will they have information and openness about sex for people outside wedlock, or better yet, teenage kids?


That's what I meant, Mab. I do think so. They probably do get the information outside of the home because it is everywhere. And even if they are so isolated it's a small portion of the population.
As I said before, the fringe (minority) examples are small. There will always be some exceptions in any argument I don't see the need to dwell on them or make them the focus.

www.Carabao.net
As long as there's, you know, sex and drugs, I can do without the rock and roll.
Mick Shrimpton
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 12/29/2003 :  07:15:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Woody D

quote:
Originally posted by Renae

In other words, everybody's life experience is different, and no one is under any obligation to make the same choices YOU personally make.


Excuse me but, I do expect others to make the same choices I do and have the same knowledge to do so.
It's quite simple, if you do X than Z will happen. How difficult is that to understand?
Although if everyone thunk like I, I'd have no one to argue with, how dull would that be? And the worst thing....I'd have no one to complain about.



What a completely fallacious post.

You expect others to make the same choices as you do based on the same learning you have. It has been overtly pointed out in this forum over several discussions that people all have vastly different experiences while growing up and exposure to the same learning you did. Remember "Duck and Cover"? Can you sing the little song? I do. I'm betting you don't.

With the advent of radical extremist fundamentalist Evangelicalism, the school books are under constant attack as well as the courses of study. This group pushes for the inclusion of Creationism in science class, the removal of sex education, and force ignorance of any religion other than their brand of Christianity.

You have a very black and white view of the world. Reality is a myriad of shades of grey. "If you do X than Z will happen" isn't true for sexual contact or much of human behavior. It is actually "if you do X, Z might happen or has a very good chance of happening". It isn't as simple as you would think. The incredulous tone of your post and the timbre of other posts you have made tends to indicate that you feel that you are never wrong and no amount of evidence to the contrary will refute your position.

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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Woody D
Skeptic Friend

Thailand
285 Posts

Posted - 01/02/2004 :  22:59:08   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Woody D a Private Message
1st, I must say, I never thought I'd be reading a post by Val again but having a minute between commericals going on this web site seemed like a thing to do. And funny but this particular post didn't have as much of a mish mash of words as they usualy do.

quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer

You expect others to make the same choices as you do based on the same learning you have.




That would be nice, yes. If everyone in the world could agree on one form of gov., economic system, 'religion', etc., don't you think that would ease tensions?

quote:

The incredulous tone of your post and the timbre of other posts you have made tends to indicate that you feel that you are never wrong and no amount of evidence to the contrary will refute your position.


I can see you clearly don't understand what I say, and your seriousness (if you realy are meaning what you say) is amusing to me. And even if what you say were true, people have opinions about things, just because they don't agree with yours, doesn't mean they are wrong. Most of what I see here are opinions, we are not reading a text book, we are discussing ideas. Opinions don't have evidence.

www.Carabao.net
As long as there's, you know, sex and drugs, I can do without the rock and roll.
Mick Shrimpton
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 01/05/2004 :  08:02:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Woody D

1st, I must say, I never thought I'd be reading a post by Val again but having a minute between commericals going on this web site seemed like a thing to do. And funny but this particular post didn't have as much of a mish mash of words as they usualy do.

quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer

You expect others to make the same choices as you do based on the same learning you have.




That would be nice, yes. If everyone in the world could agree on one form of gov., economic system, 'religion', etc., don't you think that would ease tensions?

quote:

The incredulous tone of your post and the timbre of other posts you have made tends to indicate that you feel that you are never wrong and no amount of evidence to the contrary will refute your position.


I can see you clearly don't understand what I say, and your seriousness (if you realy are meaning what you say) is amusing to me. And even if what you say were true, people have opinions about things, just because they don't agree with yours, doesn't mean they are wrong. Most of what I see here are opinions, we are not reading a text book, we are discussing ideas. Opinions don't have evidence.



Nice dodge. Completely ignored salient parts of the post.

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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Jarrid
Skeptic Friend

101 Posts

Posted - 02/02/2004 :  16:58:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Jarrid an AOL message Send Jarrid a Private Message
Gorgo:

"Iraq: Attacking the people of Iraq for the last dozen or so years is a crime. That crime is not made better by capturing one person who has outlived his usefulness to the criminals-in-charge in Washington."

--You make it sound like we have attacked the citizens of Iraq, which is not true. We HAVE, however, attacked their military force, be they heavily trained or simply a local militia. We attacked military forces, which were being used to carry out Sadaam's illegal actions. They weren't mercifullessly slaughtered(not sure if mercifullessly is a word lol;>), they were given a chance to surrender and be given safety.

I don't have to go swimming through an outhouse to know I wouldn't like it."
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lovekraft0
New Member

USA
6 Posts

Posted - 02/03/2004 :  21:26:12   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send lovekraft0 a Private Message
Hmmm... think about what might have happened if abortion had been available to Saddam's mother. Seriously, all this misses the point - if you have a Y chromosome, this is not your issue, regardless of what you believe. It's like women arguing heatedly about the merits of circumcision; you are not directly affected. If a woman chooses to have an unwanted growth removed from her body, she has that right, whether it's a tumor or a fetus. If you really wanted a child, you shouldn't have been careless enough to impregnate a woman who didn't. A woman is more than a breeding apparatus, and sex is about a lot more than reproduction. One of my favorite standup comedians put it very succinctly - if men got pregnant, abortion clinics would have pool tables and draft beer. I'm not minimizing the impact of terminating a pregnancy - it must be a difficult decision for any woman, but it is her decision.

...extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence...
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Woody D
Skeptic Friend

Thailand
285 Posts

Posted - 02/03/2004 :  22:48:29   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Woody D a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by lovekraft0
I'm not minimizing the impact of terminating a pregnancy - it must be a difficult decision for any woman, but it is her decision.


IMO it shouldn't be a difficult decision. Some just want to make more of it than it is. More people should have abortions, there are too many people around.
Too many people, not enough trees!
However, what about the man who might want a child? Shouldn't he have some say so because part of him is now mixed in with that tissue mess?

www.Carabao.net
As long as there's, you know, sex and drugs, I can do without the rock and roll.
Mick Shrimpton
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 02/04/2004 :  04:44:29   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
Actually, no one was given the chance to surrender as it turns out, but certainly not the people of Iraq who have been under attack by the U.S. since before the first Gulf War.


quote:
Originally posted by Jarrid

Gorgo:

"Iraq: Attacking the people of Iraq for the last dozen or so years is a crime. That crime is not made better by capturing one person who has outlived his usefulness to the criminals-in-charge in Washington."

--You make it sound like we have attacked the citizens of Iraq, which is not true. We HAVE, however, attacked their military force, be they heavily trained or simply a local militia. We attacked military forces, which were being used to carry out Sadaam's illegal actions. They weren't mercifullessly slaughtered(not sure if mercifullessly is a word lol;>), they were given a chance to surrender and be given safety.


I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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Computer Org
Skeptic Friend

392 Posts

Posted - 02/04/2004 :  07:54:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Computer Org a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Woody D

IMO it shouldn't be a difficult decision. Some just want to make more of it than it is. More people should have abortions, there are too many people around.
Too many people, not enough trees!
However, what about the man who might want a child? Shouldn't he have some say so because part of him is now mixed in with that tissue mess?

Bah! Way too many people and vastly too few trees; but do we really have to kill wee, tiny babies just to balance things? How about a nice, cheap, effective birth-control program coupled with widespread, mandated tree-planting?

"Down with buildings!" I say. "Bring the trees and wildlife back." Declare an absolute moratorium on all new building until an ecological balance is again achieved.

Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my life. --Falstaff
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 02/04/2004 :  08:37:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Computer Org

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Woody D

IMO it shouldn't be a difficult decision. Some just want to make more of it than it is. More people should have abortions, there are too many people around.
Too many people, not enough trees!
However, what about the man who might want a child? Shouldn't he have some say so because part of him is now mixed in with that tissue mess?


quote:
Bah! Way too many people and vastly too few trees; but do we really have to kill wee, tiny babies just to balance things? How about a nice, cheap, effective birth-control program coupled with widespread, mandated tree-planting?

"Down with buildings!" I say. "Bring the trees and wildlife back." Declare an absolute moratorium on all new building until an ecological balance is again achieved.



For just this once, I find myself in complete agreement with both Snake and Computer Org. Damn. Think I'll go get me a drink o' whiskey.


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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lovekraft0
New Member

USA
6 Posts

Posted - 02/04/2004 :  14:13:28   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send lovekraft0 a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Woody D
However, what about the man who might want a child? Shouldn't he have some say so because part of him is now mixed in with that tissue mess?


I still maintain that unless that man can actually remove the "child" from the unwilling host without harm to said host and gestate it to term himself, he has no rights in the matter. You don't have to stretch things far from there, and a childless woman could sue an unwilling partner for using a condom or masturbating, since either of these acts deprives her of a "child". It's like the difference between ham and eggs - the chicken is disadvantaged, but the pig is eaten!

...extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence...
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Trish
SFN Addict

USA
2102 Posts

Posted - 02/04/2004 :  15:50:48   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Trish a Private Message
Sex education in schools doesn't even begin to cover every possibly for conception. To get down to the nuts and bolts of sex in a school setting in the US wouldn't go over well with many people. I know my kid is sufficiently knowledgeable regarding the ways of getting pregnant and ways of avoiding pregnancy that I needent worry over much about the issue.

I've said this in amny discussions on abortion previously on this board, but I see some new names, so I'll go say it again.

I do not agree with the pro-life/anti-abortion crowd on many issues. First, it is this group who primarily pulls the blinders on and refuses to accept that abstinence is not necessarily a viable alternative as a means of birth control. Though admittedly the only 100% effective means of birth control. This group in general disagrees with teaching children the proper effective use of birth control measures. In some cases to the point of disagreeing with the use of any means of birth control.

If you leave a population ignorant regarding their own reproductive system and the means by which to control pregnancy, you are left with one alternative to carrying a fetus to term - abortion.

I will bring up Denmark again, (I will if I can and it is necessary find the references for this again) after making birth control pills and condoms freely available, the numbers of abortions per capita dropped to one of the lowest in the western industrialized world. Where the US has one of the highest abortion rates per capita. Reason, we do not offer birth control freely without question for use by our young people. Hence, infants being left in garbage cans etc. Even so, the US has such a prohibition against openly discussing sex that many are left unprepared for the least common ways it is possible to become pregnant. That pregnancy can occur without penetration, even if the female still has a hymen. Virginity does not protect against pregnancy. Nursing an infant does not prevent pregnancy in a woman.

If the US is prepared to force women to abrogate their rights to an abortion then it must become the responsibility of the US to support those children who are unwanted in adequate fashion. Without this framework in place, the numbers of children who wind up in the foster care systems will exceed the numbers of people willing to care for these children. We will need to go back to a large number of orphanges or something else to care and support these unwanted children.

C88 and other pro-lifers ask yourself, and answer honestly, (glad to see you're no longer doing hit and run posts, or accept my apologies if I'm thinking of someone else), is it better for a child to not exist or to exist where it is not wanted, not loved, and not properly cared for? Is it better for a child to not exist or grow up impoverished with a sense that it is something less than a full citizen in the human race?

Renae,

I think you've covered most of the emotional things that single parents face.

For those of you who don't know, I am a single mother, I've been through all of this, my daughter is a wonderful child that doesn't live with me right now because I am financially incapable (still) of taking proper care of her. I have been for the last three years essentially.

The fear, anger, upset, self-derision are things that you probably can't understand, because I made the choice to carry my pregnancy to term with no understanding of what I was getting into as a single parent (though I didn't know I would wind up one until I was 6 months pregnant).

As for biblical, religious, etc historical reference to abortions. It was canonically correct to have an abortion as codified at the council of 1312 as long as the fetus did not look human. It was legally correct in the US as long as quickening had not occured. Thanks to the then struggling AMA it was no longer left to the woman to make the decision regarding quickening but rather had to be decided by a doctor. It wasn't ever illegal in some states. It was in 1869 when a Jesuit looked through a microscope at spermatazoa and declared a fully formed human soul in the sperm that the catholic church declared abortion against canonical law.

So we are looking at slightly more than 120 years of catholic church history and less of US history (circa 1900's and formation of AMA) against abortion. The AMA supported abortion as an option in the Roe v Wade case.

An interesting read, The Cider House Rules.

...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young

"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.

They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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Woody D
Skeptic Friend

Thailand
285 Posts

Posted - 02/04/2004 :  20:10:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Woody D a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Computer Org
"Down with buildings!" I say. "Bring the trees and wildlife back." Declare an absolute moratorium on all new building until an ecological balance is again achieved.


You aren't a memeber of the ELF are you? Org.
And why aren't you running for president?
Filthy could be the campain manager or run for VP with you.
You'd get my vote.
(Not being sarcastic either.)

www.Carabao.net
As long as there's, you know, sex and drugs, I can do without the rock and roll.
Mick Shrimpton
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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2004 :  17:53:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message



Trish wrote:
quote:
I will bring up Denmark again, (I will if I can and it is necessary find the references for this again) after making birth control pills and condoms freely available, the numbers of abortions per capita dropped to one of the lowest in the western industrialized world. Where the US has one of the highest abortion rates per capita. Reason, we do not offer birth control freely without question for use by our young people. Hence, infants being left in garbage cans etc. Even so, the US has such a prohibition against openly discussing sex that many are left unprepared for the least common ways it is possible to become pregnant. That pregnancy can occur without penetration, even if the female still has a hymen. Virginity does not protect against pregnancy. Nursing an infant does not prevent pregnancy in a woman.


quote:
If the US is prepared to force women to abrogate their rights to an abortion then it must become the responsibility of the US to support those children who are unwanted in adequate fashion.

Why is it that you do not hold women accountable for their bodies and actions before having sex, but after they are pregnent, you think that all of a sudden they are responsible for their own bodies?

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington
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