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Jarrid
Skeptic Friend
101 Posts |
 Posted - 02/02/2004 : 20:25:55 [Permalink]
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gezzam,
i was not denying that our bodies do rot, but i was more going along the lines that how do you know thats the end? have you experienced death to know that theres no afterlife?
kil,
"Nope. That is a Christian concept. I am not a Christian. I have never been a Christian. And, I have never sinned. Not in the way you think of sin, anyway..."
you've never sinned? i don't think you quite understand what sin is, because everyone has sinned. not int he way i think of sin? i think you've also misunderstood somehow how i view sin. sin is the breaking of Gods commandments to us, but beyond that, can include things like not listening to what God tells us to do, worrying, lying(even little white lies), stealing(regardless of value), and above all of that, because of Adams sin, we are born into sin so even if you avoid all of the other things you are still a sinner because you are born into it. because of Adam, we are cursed to be born into sin, thats just the way it is. does that clear up my definition of sin a little bit? i hope it helps a little on my thinking anyway.
gezzman and renae,
are either one of you musicians? and by musicians i don't mean that you've strummed a guitar once in your life, i mean you actively play music? i am not trying to brag here, but i play 6 instruments, 7 if you want to include the harmonica lol;) but yeah i play guitar, bass guitar, drums, violin, piano, banjo, and the harmonica, and i have been involved in vocal music my entire life as well. i have taken courses in music theory as well. now....i'm assuming you are musicians because you are criticizing music, so how can you say that they hymns, disregarding content, are not well written music or constructed well or that the music is bad? with the melody, would you rather sing one note straight through? say its in the key of c, would you rather sing the note c all the way through? it would be more like a chant! the melody is not discernable? its written right in front of you lol;) how can you not discern it? no one knows the words or tune anyhow...well for one the tune, also the melody, would be right in front of them in their music, and if they can't read music, listen to it one time through and then join in, and the words are right in front of you as well, and if you sing a song enough times you will know the words. i don't criticize led zeppelein because i don't know all the words to kashmir or whatever, so that isn't a viable critique of a song. the reason you probably say things about this style of music is because you don't like the content of the words or the environment that you are singing the songs in, not that the music is bad.
"Nah, it's a load of crap."
again, its because you don't have the faith to believe it, which is ok, but rather than saying its a load of crap because there is no WAY you can know whether it is TRUE or not, just as there is really no way that I can know if it is true or not, then how about saying something like i don't have the knowledge to say whether it is true or not? you cannot, and i repeat you CANNOT disprove christianity, just as i CANNOT prove christianity to be true. thats just the way it is. you don't like it, lie to yourself. you can sit outside on a bright cloudless sunny day sometime and tell yourself that the sky is purple with pink dots but that doesn't mean its true, and if i'm not outside with you that day i can't disagree with you telling me that because i haven't seen it for myself to be able to say that the sky is in fact blue rather than purple with pink dots.
filthy,
i agree. the universe is large and full of possibilities. there is a possibility that i am wrong in what i believe and that i believe a lie, just as there is a possibility that skeptics, so to speak, are choosing to ignore the truth. sometimes reason is a good thing, and other times it is very unhealthy...in my opinion of course;) who's to say i'm right? no one.
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I don't have to go swimming through an outhouse to know I wouldn't like it." |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2004 : 22:48:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Jarrid:
you've never sinned? i don't think you quite understand what sin is, because everyone has sinned. not int he way i think of sin? i think you've also misunderstood somehow how i view sin. sin is the breaking of Gods commandments to us, but beyond that, can include things like not listening to what God tells us to do, worrying, lying(even little white lies), stealing(regardless of value), and above all of that, because of Adams sin, we are born into sin so even if you avoid all of the other things you are still a sinner because you are born into it. because of Adam, we are cursed to be born into sin, thats just the way it is. does that clear up my definition of sin a little bit? i hope it helps a little on my thinking anyway.
Sorry, I have never sinned. Not in the way you think. I would have to except your premise to except your definition of sin. I don't. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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freetobe
New Member
USA
10 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2004 : 22:55:06 [Permalink]
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valiant
you keep asking what does satan have to do with what happened to me, i told you I am a survivor. My grandfather was a shah man medicine man and my mother was raised on a reservation, when i was born all I knew was rituals and days of summoning spirits to guide us in our lives.. so many things weren't right, but I was made to watch and learn. I could not speak of anything or I would not live to tell about it. I learned how to mix recipes depending on what ritual was taking place.. I can't begin to tell you what rituals there was to graphic, and also I am not giving satan any more credit he doesn't deserve... But the point is the evil they called upon was satan and I only knew what they taught me and thought I was never going to have a choice to believe in any other thing, I was taught God was the enemy, man was I wrong... God is love satan is a liar, he preverts the truth and makes bad things seem innocent and intising... What they told me I believed and when I thought i was right they would change to make me wrong when i was right just to torment me and program me for their sick way of taking my innocence. If you don't know about SRA then you should read up cause I cannot just tell you so many, many things they done to me..I will answer questions if you ask I am not afraid anymore cause what they did to me was not my fault, and what they made me do was not my fault, but I do know satan was behind it all. Only he could put the worst thoughts in their heads, and he comes to Steal, kill and Destroy all of God's people cause he knows their weaknesses and how to push certain buttons to keep people in terror and torment so they won't be what god wants them to be, so I hope you have a better understanding on satan now. And anyway Bible says God is love he couldn't hurt anyone he can't go against his own word. Thanks |
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Jarrid
Skeptic Friend
101 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2004 : 22:58:49 [Permalink]
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| kil...just out of curiousity, if you were to define the word "sin", then how would you define it? |
I don't have to go swimming through an outhouse to know I wouldn't like it." |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2004 : 23:07:21 [Permalink]
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Jarrid wrote:quote:
gezzam,
i was not denying that our bodies do rot, but i was more going along the lines that how do you know thats the end? have you experienced death to know that theres no afterlife?
I'm not Gezzam, but have you experienced death to know that there is an afterlife?quote:
kil,
"Nope. That is a Christian concept. I am not a Christian. I have never been a Christian. And, I have never sinned. Not in the way you think of sin, anyway..."
you've never sinned? i don't think you quite understand what sin is, because everyone has sinned. not int he way i think of sin? i think you've also misunderstood somehow how i view sin. sin is the breaking of Gods commandments to us, but beyond that, can include things like not listening to what God tells us to do, worrying, lying(even little white lies), stealing(regardless of value), and above all of that, because of Adams sin, we are born into sin so even if you avoid all of the other things you are still a sinner because you are born into it. because of Adam, we are cursed to be born into sin, thats just the way it is. does that clear up my definition of sin a little bit? i hope it helps a little on my thinking anyway.
While I'm not Kil, either, this doesn't clear anything up except for the fact that you think it's okay to judge others based upon your own belief system. If it's okay to call Kil a sinner without ever having met the man, I suppose it's okay for me to claim that you owe me $1,000, since it's my belief that everyone should give me money or go to hell.  quote:
gezzman and renae,
are either one of you musicians? and by musicians i don't mean that you've strummed a guitar once in your life, i mean you actively play music? i am not trying to brag here, but i play 6 instruments, 7 if you want to include the harmonica lol;) but yeah i play guitar, bass guitar, drums, violin, piano, banjo, and the harmonica, and i have been involved in vocal music my entire life as well. i have taken courses in music theory as well. now....i'm assuming you are musicians because you are criticizing music, so how can you say that they hymns, disregarding content, are not well written music or constructed well or that the music is bad?
<snip>
No matter how many instruments you play, or how many courses in music theory you've taken, or how few instruments Gezzam and Renae might play, or whether they're "musicians" at all (no matter what definition of that word you'd like to use), the simple fact of the matter is that musical beauty is in the ear of the beholder. Attempting to argue against a subjective opinion of a form of art is futile, and your attempt at wowing us all with your (alleged) knowledge and skill only takes away from any case you may have been attempting to build.quote:
"Nah, it's a load of crap."
again, its because you don't have the faith to believe it, which is ok, but rather than saying its a load of crap because there is no WAY you can know whether it is TRUE or not, just as there is really no way that I can know if it is true or not, then how about saying something like i don't have the knowledge to say whether it is true or not? you cannot, and i repeat you CANNOT disprove christianity, just as i CANNOT prove christianity to be true. thats just the way it is. you don't like it, lie to yourself. you can sit outside on a bright cloudless sunny day sometime and tell yourself that the sky is purple with pink dots but that doesn't mean its true, and if i'm not outside with you that day i can't disagree with you telling me that because i haven't seen it for myself to be able to say that the sky is in fact blue rather than purple with pink dots.
You left out the possibility that the sky really is purple with pink dots, and the disagreement is with your eyes.
Again, Gezzam posted his opinion on the matter. Telling him there's no way he can prove his opinion correct is of little consequence, since it means that your opinion is just as suspect.
Oh, by the way, Christianity exists, and as such, is "true." What may or may not be true are the alleged "facts" supporting Christian views, and as stated elsewhere in these forums right now, there are, literally, hundreds of differing opinions about which Christian view is the correct one. Before attempting to make sure that atheists understand your ideas about Christianity, you'd be better off making sure that everyone else in the world who calls themselves a "Christian" (including Catholics and Mormons) shares your doctrine.quote:
filthy,
i agree. the universe is large and full of possibilities. there is a possibility that i am wrong in what i believe and that i believe a lie, just as there is a possibility that skeptics, so to speak, are choosing to ignore the truth. sometimes reason is a good thing, and other times it is very unhealthy...in my opinion of course;) who's to say i'm right? no one.
Then who are you to ask Gezzam for evidence that there is not life after death? Or to tell Kil that he's a sinner because of your beliefs? Or to imply that someone else's opinions about music are wrong?
You've basically just confessed that you've got no idea at all whether God exists. You can choose to live in fear that He might exist, which is basically what Pascal's wager says. I, and perhaps others here, choose to live as if I cannot know if any deities exist at all, and I expect, upon my death, that any deity which does exist will be understanding and compassionate enough to see that because He, She or It didn't leave any reliabale clues whatsoever, my doubts are reasonable.
After all, only a petty and vindictive god would tell us all, "I will leave no evidence of my presence, but if you don't believe in me by the time you die, I'll make you pay forever after."
Indeed, my wager is that if there is a God, He/She/It will have the Grace to know that getting people to do as He/She/It wants through fear and intimidation is tantamount to bullying, and so instead will simply tell me what I did wrong, and expect me to behave better in the future, whatever that future may be. The Christian God, in this respect, fails all my tests at being a "loving" being. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2004 : 23:11:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
are either one of you musicians? and by musicians i don't mean that you've strummed a guitar once in your life, i mean you actively play music? i am not trying to brag here, but i play 6 instruments, 7 if you want to include the harmonica lol;) but yeah i play guitar, bass guitar, drums, violin, piano, banjo, and the harmonica, and i have been involved in vocal music my entire life as well. i have taken courses in music theory as well. now....i'm assuming you are musicians because you are criticizing music, so how can you say that they hymns, disregarding content, are not well written music or constructed well or that the music is bad? with the melody, would you rather sing one note straight through? say its in the key of c, would you rather sing the note c all the way through? it would be more like a chant! the melody is not discernable? its written right in front of you lol;) how can you not discern it? no one knows the words or tune anyhow...well for one the tune, also the melody, would be right in front of them in their music, and if they can't read music, listen to it one time through and then join in, and the words are right in front of you as well, and if you sing a song enough times you will know the words. i don't criticize led zeppelein because i don't know all the words to kashmir or whatever, so that isn't a viable critique of a song. the reason you probably say things about this style of music is because you don't like the content of the words or the environment that you are singing the songs in, not that the music is bad.
Well yes in fact I would consider myself a musician. I have played in various bands over the past 20 years ranging from styles from Death Metal (in my younger foolish days) to Classical, Jazz and Blues now. I can play guitar, bass, drums, keyboards and a mean triangle.
I have never had any music lessons but I know my theory from years of bunkering down in my room, listening to and learning different styles of music.
Just because a song has a melody it doesn't mean it is well written. Hymns are boring and they all sound the same just like Napalm Death songs are boring and always sound the same. My musical appreciation grew along with my ability to play my instrument, I used to love Napalm Death, now I think they are crap. The hymns are mainly written in the mixolodian scale and I just don't like it.
Give me a simple pentatonic blues scale in A major and you will find that it rocks. Just ask Jimmy Page. |
Mistakes are a part of being human. Appreciate your mistakes for what they are: precious life lessons that can only be learned the hard way. Unless it's a fatal mistake, which, at least, others can learn from.
Al Franken |
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Jarrid
Skeptic Friend
101 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2004 : 23:39:34 [Permalink]
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Dave,
"I'm not Gezzam, but have you experienced death to know that there is an afterlife?"
again, no i have not, but have you experienced death to know that there isn't? i know that you need not prove what you believe...that seems to be the policy around here, but rather that you expect me to back up what i believe, but thats the way it is...you can't say there isn't, i can't say there is. plain and simple.
"While I'm not Kil, either, this doesn't clear anything up except for the fact that you think it's okay to judge others based upon your own belief system. If it's okay to call Kil a sinner without ever having met the man, I suppose it's okay for me to claim that you owe me $1,000, since it's my belief that everyone should give me money or go to hell. "
here, you seem to mistake the fact that i judge myself in that as well. the only difference with me is that i've been forgiven, according to the bible, of the sins which i committed. it is possible, though not probable, to avoid sinful behavior, but on a biblical bases, everyone has born into sin, therefore making everyone a sinner. i did not say that kil was an immoral person; that doesn't matter. part of it was me defining sin, and saying how difficult it would be for one to avoid sinful behavior, but where being a sinner comes in to play is the fact that, according to the bible, we are born into it. thats all:) and again to restate this: i pass this "judgement" on myself as well. i do not hold others to a standard that i don't expect myself to follow, nor do i condemn someone for their behavior.
"No matter how many instruments you play, or how many courses in music theory you've taken, or how few instruments Gezzam and Renae might play, or whether they're "musicians" at all (no matter what definition of that word you'd like to use), the simple fact of the matter is that musical beauty is in the ear of the beholder. Attempting to argue against a subjective opinion of a form of art is futile, and your attempt at wowing us all with your (alleged) knowledge and skill only takes away from any case you may have been attempting to build."
the first thing i posted here was about creation v. evolution. this is a reply to something I posted:
"I'm certain you'd agree Stephen Hawking is an intelligent individual. But if he ventured into an engine repair website and demonstrated a lack of the basics of that subject, it would be just as proper to point it out to him."
to me, it does matter whether or not they are musicians, or deal with music. listening to music is great, but it doesn't make you an expert on the history of musical notation lol...it carries no weight, and that was my point. just took the long way around i guess;) and i know i can't prove it to you, but i hope that you see that i am not a liar, i state what i believe to be the truth, so try not to use the word "alleged" when it comes to my music...kinda hurts my feelings a little lol;) jk but yeah music is a HUGE part of my life so i guess just believe me on that one and try to stay away from doubting that part of my post..;)
"Oh, by the way, Christianity exists, and as such, is "true." What may or may not be true are the alleged "facts" supporting Christian views, and as stated elsewhere in these forums right now, there are, literally, hundreds of differing opinions about which Christian view is the correct one. Before attempting to make sure that atheists understand your ideas about Christianity, you'd be better off making sure that everyone else in the world who calls themselves a "Christian" (including Catholics and Mormons) shares your doctrine."
to me, Christians are Christians, regardless of their doctrine. the bible says "you will know them by their fruits.." speaking of the fruits of the spirit which are found in gal. 5:22, and that is what i view a christian as--a person who shows such qualities. it doesn't matter to me if one doctrine says "once in grace always in grace" while another says "entire sanctification." what matters is what is in the heart, not on paper.
"Then who are you to ask Gezzam for evidence that there is not life after death? Or to tell Kil that he's a sinner because of your beliefs? Or to imply that someone else's opinions about music are wrong?"
according to what you say, who are you or who is anyone else on here to ask for evidence of christianity or that there is life after death? and again you make it sound like i'm singling him out when my statement included everyone discluding god himself. and back to the music, again i want to make sure that its something that means something...you all criticized kent hovind, and from what i read rightfully so...but a lot of it was criticism about his credentials. same here...where are the credentials? you can talk but does it make a difference if you don't have the "credentials"?
"You've basically just confessed that you've got no idea at all whether God exists. You can choose to live in fear that He might exist, which is basically what Pascal's wager says. I, and perhaps others here, choose to live as if I cannot know if any deities exist at all, and I expect, upon my death, that any deity which does exist will be understanding and compassionate enough to see that because He, She or It didn't leave any reliabale clues whatsoever, my doubts are reasonable."
I didn't confess that I have no clue whether or not God exists...I KNOW God exists. theres not a doubt in my mind to that one fact, but i know that i cannot prove Gods existence, and i'm open to that. i'm not gonna lie and act like i can, because it is impossible to do. if God left evidence everywhere to his existence, it would be easy to be a christian, because it would require NO faith whatsoever. thats not to say there is no evidence, but it is not rock hard evidence, but rather subtle things that are evidence of Gods work. you assume that I live in fear, as well, and i do not. i do not fear that i'll walk down the street and say a curse word and get struck by lightening or something like that, but rather I am a christian and serve God because of the gift given to me, because there's no way I can pay that debt back, but i can offer my life in return. i do not live in fear, but rather in the hope of my Lord.
"After all, only a petty and vindictive god would tell us all, ' will leave no evidence of my presence, but if you don't believe in me by the time you die, I'll make you pay forever after.'"
again you cannot expect a holy and just and righteous God to allow a sinner into a perfect and complete heaven. allowing so would only compromise Gods holiness and compromise the perfection of heaven. you can't expect a just and righteous and loving God NOT to send you to hell if you choose to disobey him and disobey his word. and before you jump at me, i'm not condemning anyone to hell...i'm not saying that you, dave, or you, kil, or anyone else here is going to heaven or hell, but rather that a sinner, if not forgiven by God, is going to hell plain and simple.
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I don't have to go swimming through an outhouse to know I wouldn't like it." |
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Jarrid
Skeptic Friend
101 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2004 : 23:40:52 [Permalink]
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"here, you seem to mistake the fact that i judge myself in that as well."
to clarify, you seem to assume that i leave myself out of this statement, which i do not. |
I don't have to go swimming through an outhouse to know I wouldn't like it." |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2004 : 02:42:24 [Permalink]
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I myself do not believe there is such a thing as life after death nor in the existance of a soul to enjoy it. Can I prove this? No, and it is not incumbent upon me to do so. I would be trying to prove a negitive, and that can't be done. It is upon the claiment to supply the evidence.
So, the theist claims that there is a couple of places a soul might go, both pretty ghastly if as described. The atheist sez, "Fine. Please independently document this. Of course, documentation will not be forthcoming, at least not independant documentation (Bible, Koran, et al thumping and hand-waving is not independant documentation). Thus, the whole question puts us at a rather silly impass. I don't believe it and you don't got it, so we'll all just stand back and spit at each other. 
Why do I not accept life after death? Occam's Razor, for one reason. "From the evidence, the simpleist explanation is usually the correct one." The key word is, of course, 'evidence'. As there is none either way, all of the LAD examples put forth from days when Homo s. sapiens first began to wonder about such things are equally valid; not to mention, but I will, the less reverent ones. Indeed, we could all be put out to eternal pasture with the Invisible, Pink Unicorn. 
I recall stating in another post to the effect that in a limitless universe, there are unlimited possibilities. This, when you think about it, opens up a whole 'nother can o' worms.
I think that what we have here is simple, human ego. We find it difficult to imagine an existance that does not contain the unique, irreplacable Me. I and my peers are so wonderful that God must favor us and send all them other blaphemous bastards, who don't buy into our version of myths and metaphysics, and who we never liked, anyway, to a well-deserved perdition. We, and only we, are gonna bask in the Presence.
At about this point, I usually begin demanding evidence and proofs for life after death, or indeed, proofs for any metaphysical phenomena, but I've done it and come up empty so many times that I think I'll pass on it. Unless, of course.........
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2004 : 03:39:46 [Permalink]
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Posted by jarrid
quote:
here, you seem to mistake the fact that i judge myself in that as well. the only difference with me is that i've been forgiven, according to the bible, of the sins which i committed.
I've always found this a rather amusing idea. First, we create a god, make rules and tell people not to break those rules or the god will be angry. Ah, but if you do that, it's still okay. You can always truthfully tell your god later that you were sorry and feel really, really guilty about it. That's Okay...
"Hey, neighbor, I just pumped seventeen rounds into your dog, but I'm really, really sorry."
That's cool, friend, there's more dogs where that one came from. Hey, ya want me to get you one, too?
Have you sinned or haven't you? Does being forgiven mean that you must prostrate yourself before an angry, jealous god that is intent on seeing you burn for eternity unless you tell him how pathetic you are in his sight?
Now, how about that free will thing? How can we have free will before a god that is omniscient? Doesn't that god already know what the history of your life would be? Wouldn't that simply be an illusion of free willy? And, if the god knows everything, and creates you knowing that your going to be bad and not say "I'm sorry, Boss," then, isn't that the same as creating something just to watch it suffer?
Finally, how much free will is even involved with omniscience, for crying out loud? How can you change the future if you already know what it is?
And, why do I go off on these crazy tangents?
Anyhow, there are actually a few Hymns that I enjoy, and a whole lotta Spirituals. Spirituals are packed with power and emotion.
Posted by jarrid
quote:
to me, it does matter whether or not they are musicians, or deal with music. listening to music is great, but it doesn't make you an expert on the history of musical notation lol...it carries no weight, and that was my point.
Jarrid, my wife and I are very active in the local music scene, and we know many musicians very well. Most of these guys, and girls know nothing about "musical notation" and the only history they know is stuff like, "This was how how 'Guitar' Kelly played it." They may talk about hearing their first T-Bone Walker 45, and that's when they got the music. Or, they may remember hearing Charlie Christian as he changed the world of Jazz guitar while they borrowed a lick or two here and there.
Marc Savoy never 'studied music' like we may study Algebra. He learned to play accordian, then learned to repair them to save money. Soon, he was learning about the sound and the quality of the sound. He listenned to what others did, then he matched it, and went beyond, until he finally became a master accordian maker, and I still don't know if he can read music.
Music is about what you feel, and what it does to you. In this sense we all know music.
'Amazing Grace' is quite simply one of the greatest Hymns ever written. It is a truly stirring peice of music. We don't have to know where it was written or even how to play it, or to sing the words to know the music. It does carry weight. Those of us who love the music make it what it is, regardless of how many instruments we play, or whether we know the difference between a note and a chord. It still carries the weight of our emotions. If it's what we love, that's what it's all about. Down here, it's family, regardless of of who makes it and who they share it with.
It's not about your knowledge of the history and your proficiency at musical arrangements. It's about the music. Ask any seasoned musician. Ask any average Joe that's lived the Blues.
Edited because I had to go take care of a couple of honey-dos, and hit the darned ENTER key by mistake.
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"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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| Edited by - Tim on 02/03/2004 04:32:58 |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2004 : 07:05:46 [Permalink]
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Jarrid, let me ask you something (I'll let your comments about my views on music slide for now....)
Have you ever held a newborn baby? Does it make any logical sense (not dogmatic/religious sense, but logical sense) that a baby could be a "sinner", or "born with original sin?" After all, its brain isn't even fully developed; a baby can't do much more than poop and drool (which aren't sins, last time I checked.)
I hate--I mean hate--the concept of original sin. A baby should never feel that she is to blame for things she didn't do, or grow up with some vague feeling of shame or sin. "We're all born sinners" is truly one of the dumbest things about Chrisitainity, IMO.
Now, please don't respond to me with Bible quotes, because I won't read them. I'm asking for a logical or intuitive perspective from you. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2004 : 07:07:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Jarrid
yes, if you need evidence of existence, then it would be a load of crap, but if you can go out on a limb and have faith enough to believe that it is true regardless of evidence, then no, it is not a load of crap:)
(Emphasis mine)
I think this is hilariously funny: "believe that it is true regardless of evidence"
So if evidence say the opposite, then we should still believe it is true? Sounds much like escapism to me. That is what religion is. And it is the sentiment that I find in any religious person who believes that their holy book holds the literal truth.
It is comforting to a (insecure) person to know that all bad shit that happens does happen because there is an evil-doing demi-god who wants to hurt you, and an omni-potent God that wants you only good (provided that you lay your life in His hands).
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
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"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2004 : 08:47:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
And I speculate that we haven't learned of the existance of all of the laws of physics, and perhaps never will.
But that's the true adventure, trying to find out.
To discover new life, and new civilizations.
To boldly go where no man has gone before!
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2004 : 09:09:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by freetobe
valiant
you keep asking what does satan have to do with what happened to me, i told you I am a survivor. My grandfather was a shah man medicine man and my mother was raised on a reservation, when i was born all I knew was rituals and days of summoning spirits to guide us in our lives.. so many things weren't right, but I was made to watch and learn. I could not speak of anything or I would not live to tell about it. I learned how to mix recipes depending on what ritual was taking place.. I can't begin to tell you what rituals there was to graphic, and also I am not giving satan any more credit he doesn't deserve... But the point is the evil they called upon was satan and I only knew what they taught me and thought I was never going to have a choice to believe in any other thing, I was taught God was the enemy, man was I wrong... God is love satan is a liar, he preverts the truth and makes bad things seem innocent and intising... What they told me I believed and when I thought i was right they would change to make me wrong when i was right just to torment me and program me for their sick way of taking my innocence. If you don't know about SRA then you should read up cause I cannot just tell you so many, many things they done to me..I will answer questions if you ask I am not afraid anymore cause what they did to me was not my fault, and what they made me do was not my fault, but I do know satan was behind it all. Only he could put the worst thoughts in their heads, and he comes to Steal, kill and Destroy all of God's people cause he knows their weaknesses and how to push certain buttons to keep people in terror and torment so they won't be what god wants them to be, so I hope you have a better understanding on satan now. And anyway Bible says God is love he couldn't hurt anyone he can't go against his own word. Thanks
Having studied Native American shamanism, I find your premise to be completely absurd. They did not involke Satan. They involked spirits of the elements and archeotypes. The rituals were part of their heritage. You, as their child, were brought up in their traditions out of love. You then infer that your parents hurt you. How? By loving you? By alcoholism? By being true to their own spiritual path? By wanting you to follow in the old traditions?
You claimed rape, abandonment, and abuse. Rape is not acceptable in the NA community. So now I wonder if you haven't been tricked into self-loathing until you converted to Christianity.
I have extensively read on SRA. It's crap. It doesn't exist except in the minds of the Evangelical Fundamentalist movement as a way to frighten adherents. No other branch of Christianity alledges SRA exists. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
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jmcginn
Skeptic Friend
343 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2004 : 09:12:53 [Permalink]
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Jarrid,
This is the typical Christian view of the depravity of man.
quote:
We are all born into sin, as we all have a sinful human nature in us. Face it--we as humans enjoy indulging ourselves in our own sinful desires. We have all sinned, even Billy Graham and Mother Theresa. God is a Holy God, and to allow someone with sin in their lives due to the fact that they have not come to repentance if nothing else but for the fact that they were born into sin due to Adam's fall would compromise His Holiness and the perfection of Heaven.
Again this is all based on the assumption that the God of the Bible is real Jarrid. I think my example was quite clear that the chances of the God of the Bible being real is about the same as any other conceivable god being real (edited to add: or there is no god which seems the most likely explanation). As I stated above, my hypothetical god is more just than the God of the Bible.
Its actually quite absurd to think that any supreme all-good being would send anyone to be tortured for eternity. I as a father would never consider sending my children to some place of eternal torture especially if their major crime was simply not believing in me.
As someone who does not believe in the Christian mythology Jarrid, I hope you understand I do not hold your views on the sinful nature of man (in fact I hold just the opposite views, that man is normally and naturally good at least within their cultural and social background), thus I exclude the irrational idea that if there is a deity that he has setup this elaborate system of reward and punishment all based on the notion that we believe in him (or actually his son, who is really him).
Your mythology requires me to accept the following:
1. There is an all-knowing all-powerful and all-good deity.
2. Before he created anything, he knew what would happen to his creation, but yet he persisted.
3. He created man in his image knowing full well that we would sin in the Biblical sense and that the majority of his children would be cast into his Hell.
4. This all-good deity still went through with his plan however. He setup the rules, he created the creation, and then he let loose his punishments on man as they failed just like he knew they would from the beginning.
Jarrid if this is in anyway a straw man of your mythology than by all means please correct my points, but these are the basics of it from my understanding (although I have found that many Christians have very many different views on all of this).
Or I could simply accept the following about your mythology:
1. The Biblical mythology slowly evolved as all religions do into a unifying cultural element that unified various nomadic Hebrew tribes.
2. Various elements were injected about the depravity of man to explain why people do bad things and to setup a system of afterlife reward and punishment to keep people true to the creed.
3. Various other elements were concocted to explain hardships inflicted upon a people by nature and other nations and also to justify their own horrible deeds such as genocide and of course explain the unexplainable.
The latter is much more reasonable in my opinion. In fact its the same explanation I have for every religion man has devised. Until you (or anyone else) can show me good evidence that your religion is for some reason more valid than all the others I will continue down my path of unbelief. |
| Edited by - jmcginn on 02/03/2004 09:15:06 |
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