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 Did Jesus Really Exist? (poll)
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tergiversant
Skeptic Friend

USA
284 Posts

Posted - 07/31/2001 :  16:34:23  Show Profile  Visit tergiversant's Homepage  Send tergiversant a Yahoo! Message Send tergiversant a Private Message
Poll Question:
Was there really a first century Palestinian Jew named Jesus upon whose life the Christian religion was founded? (pick the best answer)

Results:


Poll Status: Locked  »»   Total Votes: 0 counted  »»   Last Vote: never 

tergiversant
Skeptic Friend

USA
284 Posts

Posted - 07/31/2001 :  16:38:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit tergiversant's Homepage  Send tergiversant a Yahoo! Message Send tergiversant a Private Message
I chose that answer because I subscribe to the veracity of the Q hypothesis. Burton Mack and George Albert Well have greatly influenced my thinking in this matter.

"Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione."
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Trish
SFN Addict

USA
2102 Posts

Posted - 07/31/2001 :  16:52:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Trish a Private Message
I on the other hand voted no. Why, I went looking for this Jesus ccharacter and couldn't find historical mention of him except as christianity affects history. I think, believe him to be a construct.

He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell!

Edited by - Trish on 07/31/2001 16:53:15
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Slater
SFN Regular

USA
1668 Posts

Posted - 07/31/2001 :  18:34:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Slater a Private Message
quote:

I chose that answer because I subscribe to the veracity of the Q hypothesis.


The main problem with Q (we think) is it's very close similarity to The Teachings of Hercules
I know this sounds strange but that is only because we have Hercules (Roman) mixed up with Heracles (Greek)
The Roman one sounds like Jesus but looks like Kevin Sorbo.

-------
The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it.
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ljbrs
SFN Regular

USA
842 Posts

Posted - 07/31/2001 :  18:39:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send ljbrs a Private Message
I voted for amalgam because there were a number of similar deities in other religions at the time which Christianity took over by adapting these other beliefs to form a new and enlarged religion. Christians have always done this with other deities, thereby increasing the extent of their following.

ljbrs

Perfection Is a State of Growth...
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Marc_a_b
Skeptic Friend

USA
142 Posts

Posted - 07/31/2001 :  20:25:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Marc_a_b an AOL message Send Marc_a_b a Private Message
I said yes. He was one nutty cult leader among many. Probably branching off from the cult John the Baptist headed. He would have faded to obscurity like the rest, but some people managed to keep it going. They started drawing from various myths to enhance his story (either deliberatly or through mixing up the stories they were told). and the rest is history.

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comradebillyboy
Skeptic Friend

USA
188 Posts

Posted - 07/31/2001 :  20:40:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send comradebillyboy a Private Message
quote:

I said yes. He was one nutty cult leader among many.


me too
i think thats a pretty good guess. i think there was a guy named jesus who had a devoted following. reportedly not an establishment kind of guy, and only a local celeb in a backwater province, its understandable that he would not show in roman records. i have very little idea what kind of records the jews kept at that time, but i understand there were lots of "holy" men who would redeem judea from roman oppression. Romans- the last time palestine had good government.

comrade billyboy
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Greg
Skeptic Friend

USA
281 Posts

Posted - 07/31/2001 :  22:17:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Greg an AOL message Send Greg a Private Message
quote:
Romans- the last time palestine had good government.


"What have the Romans ever done for us?"

There are actually some scholars who think that it's possible that Jesus was a member of the Essenes of the 'dead sea scrolls' fame.

I have even heard the theory that he was the leader of this group. I have never heard any proof though.

Personally, I can't say yes or no. Since I don't have sufficient information, any statement as to his attributes would be purely speculative.

Greg.

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comradebillyboy
Skeptic Friend

USA
188 Posts

Posted - 08/01/2001 :  00:09:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send comradebillyboy a Private Message
quote:

quote:
Romans- the last time palestine had good government.


"What have the Romans ever done for us?"

Greg.




see monty python's "life of brian" re the govt. issue. if you are not familiar with it, the movie is a parody of the gospel and absolutely hilarious.

comrade billyboy
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Greg
Skeptic Friend

USA
281 Posts

Posted - 08/01/2001 :  06:28:01   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Greg an AOL message Send Greg a Private Message
quote:
see monty python's "life of brian" re the govt. issue. if you are not familiar with it, the movie is a parody of the gospel and absolutely hilarious.


That's why I put the statement in quotes. I was quoting from the film. I've seen the film and that is one of the funniest parts.

Greg.

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tergiversant
Skeptic Friend

USA
284 Posts

Posted - 08/01/2001 :  11:01:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit tergiversant's Homepage  Send tergiversant a Yahoo! Message Send tergiversant a Private Message
quote:

quote:

I chose that answer because I subscribe to the veracity of the Q hypothesis.


The main problem with Q (we think) is it's very close similarity to The Teachings of Hercules
I know this sounds strange but that is only because we have Hercules (Roman) mixed up with Heracles (Greek)
The Roman one sounds like Jesus but looks like Kevin Sorbo.



I've read much about Christian origins and Hellenistic religion in the Roman Empire, but I've never heard of The Teachings of Hercules nor can I find any references thereto in the literature I have available. Can you help?

"Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione."
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tergiversant
Skeptic Friend

USA
284 Posts

Posted - 08/01/2001 :  11:28:49   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit tergiversant's Homepage  Send tergiversant a Yahoo! Message Send tergiversant a Private Message
I fail to see exactly how the various related myths of Hellenistic culture would imply that Jesus did not really exist. Why is it considered more likely that Jesus was fabricated wholesale from such legends rather than taken from reality and wrapped up therein?

There is more than ample evidence from the ancient world of the mythologization and deification of charismatic leaders, sages and rabbis. Csar, Appolonius, John the Baptist, and a number of Jewish Messianic claimants come to mind.

Would it not be much easier to build myths about an earthly figure upon an historical figure than to make them up from whole cloth?



"Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione."
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Slater
SFN Regular

USA
1668 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2001 :  14:19:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Slater a Private Message
quote:

I fail to see exactly how the various related myths of Hellenistic culture would imply that Jesus did not really exist.


The story of Mithra predates that of Jesus by at least 700 years. Considering that Mithra is acknowledged to be a myth is it logical to think that the second story, which is the same as the first, is historic fact?
If the story is a fact it is an extraordinary fact which makes it extreemly strange that no one at the time mentions it while they had no trouble writing about so many mundane things.

Q/Hercules is from a major Dutch mythological study done back in the 70's--I'll see if I can dig up a translation for you.

-------
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@tomic
Administrator

USA
4607 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2001 :  14:41:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit @tomic's Homepage Send @tomic a Private Message
quote:
Would it not be much easier to build myths about an earthly figure upon an historical figure than to make them up from whole cloth?


From the looks of it, no one had to go to that much trouble. Why bother when you can plagarize a dozen or so other myths and build an a la carte demi-god called Jesus that pleases everyone a little. It's a very sly political move and a tradition that continues even today(pleasing everyone a little).

@tomic

Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
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tergiversant
Skeptic Friend

USA
284 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2001 :  14:54:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit tergiversant's Homepage  Send tergiversant a Yahoo! Message Send tergiversant a Private Message
quote:
quote:

I fail to see exactly how the various related myths of Hellenistic culture would imply that Jesus did not really exist.


The story of Mithra predates that of Jesus by at least 700 years. Considering that Mithra is acknowledged to be a myth is it logical to think that the second story, which is the same as the first, is historic fact?


Indeed it is logical, as I explained above -- you did not address any of my arguments or queries.

When creating semi-biographical stories about a man who is depicted as an earthly figure (a significant contrast to the Mithraic mythology) it is far easier (in terms of believability and evangelistic appeal) for them to weave established myths around an actual historical rabbi than to create a fictional character from scratch. Moreover, this was an established practice in the biographical genre of the ancient near east.

quote:
If the story is a fact it is an extraordinary fact which makes it extremely strange that no one at the time mentions it while they had no trouble writing about so many mundane things.


Which story? The story of an itinerant rabbi wandering Palestine with his disciples? Such things were quite commonplace in first century Judea. I'm not claiming here that the gospels are historical, merely that they are based on an historical core.

quote:
Q/Hercules is from a major Dutch mythological study done back in the 70's--I'll see if I can dig up a translation for you.


Many thanks!


"Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione."
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tergiversant
Skeptic Friend

USA
284 Posts

Posted - 08/17/2001 :  12:52:50   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit tergiversant's Homepage  Send tergiversant a Yahoo! Message Send tergiversant a Private Message
quote:
quote:

Q/Hercules is from a major Dutch mythological study done back in the 70's--I'll see if I can dig up a translation for you.


Many thanks!



I'm still eagerly awaiting any thoughts on Q. I have read that much of it is presaged in Cynic and rabbinical lore, thought I've still yet to find anything about Greek Hercules.





"Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione."
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