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 Jews need to get over "Passion"
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byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"

USA
166 Posts

Posted - 02/10/2004 :  23:01:39  Show Profile  Send byhisgrace88 an AOL message Send byhisgrace88 a Private Message
I am quite excited about Mel Gibson's new movie, "The Passion" coming out later this month.

But I am sick of hearing about how Jews don't want the film released because they feel as if it puts them in a bad light, because they are the ones who killed Christ.

And since when are historical films , historical meaning WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED! Since when are they not shown because somebody might be offended.

Why was one of Mel Gibsons other movies, "The Patriot" shown, even though it put our good frieds over in Britain in a bad light? Or why was "Gladiator" shown? Maybe these same people arguing against "The Passion" would argue that it portrays Greeks badly, therefore a movie that won best picture at the "Academy Awards" should never have been shown.

So I really don't want to offend any Jews who will see this. I have nothing against you at all. But I do ask you, when it comes to this movie. To be perfectly honest, suck it up and get over it. It's what happened, and every race and religion has to live with something there ancestors did. And this is just one of those things.
Moved to the Religion Folder - Dave W.

Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25977 Posts

Posted - 02/10/2004 :  23:27:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
Personally, I'd like to see evidence that crucifiction was a "popular" punishment meted out by Jews on other Jews before ever claiming that the Jews killed Christ.

"Gladiator," by the way, portrays ancient Romans behaving badly (not Greeks), but there's a subtle point hiding behind this: the movie portrayed particular Romans behaving badly, along with other particular Romans behaving nicely. It didn't paint with such a broad brush that it either condemned or praised ancient Roman culture as either "good" or "bad" overall.

I have not seen "The Passion," nor read much of anything about it except about a couple of lightning strikes. Having said that, however, it seems to me that if "the Jews" are getting so upset about it, and you, creation88, are saying, "they are the ones who killed Christ," then perhaps the movie does portray all Jews as having a hand in his death. Such a scenario is likely impossible, as undoubtedly there would have been Jewish individuals who'd never heard of the guy (just like there are plenty of adult Americans today who've never seen the movie "ET" all the way through, for example).

So, perhaps today, there exist Jewish people whose ancestors only heard about a guy named Jesus after he was already dead. Should they just "suck it up," too?

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2004 :  02:53:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
Tempest in a teapot. It's only a movie and means nothing beyond box office reciepts. And those will be huge due to the very controversy that has beem stirred up by both Jews and Christians alike. If Gibson and Hollywood could have manufactured it, I've little doubt that they would have done. Mayhaps they did? Or at least encouraged it? And we slavishly follow along as if the film industry was an authority upon all things religious, secular, and scientific.

To the sea, my brave fellow lemmings! To the sea!

Lemmings commiting mass suicide is yet another Hollywood fantasy, this one perpetrated by Disney.

At the moment, this flick doesn't sound like anything I'd care about. But further reports might change my mind.


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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moakley
SFN Regular

USA
1883 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2004 :  05:48:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send moakley a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by creation88

And since when are historical films , historical meaning WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED! Since when are they not shown because somebody might be offended.

In that case, I hope Matthew was right. There is nothing better than earth quakes and dead people walking around to keep me on the edge of my seat.

Life is good

Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous
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Randy
SFN Regular

USA
1988 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2004 :  05:57:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Randy a Private Message
Mad Max (actor) is a major dipshit Mad Fundamentalist, more so than I thought. This guy Gibson is really caught up in the brain-thought cancer that religion can cause...

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4224452/

>snip
Mel Gibson says his wife
could be going to hell


Mel Gibson has come under fire for being hard on Jews
in his film “The Passion of the Christ” — but
apparently, he feels that Protestants are also doomed
to damnation. In fact, it looks like Gibson, a
conservative Catholic, believes that his Episcopalian
wife could be going to hell.

Gibson was interviewed by the Herald Sun in Australia,
and the reporter asked the star if Protestants are
denied eternal salvation. “There is no salvation for
those outside the Church,” Gibson replied. “I believe
it.”

He elaborated: “Put it this way. My wife is a saint.
She's a much better person than I am. Honestly. She's,
like, Episcopalian, Church of England. She prays, she
believes in God, she knows Jesus, she believes in that
stuff. And it's just not fair if she doesn't make it,
she's better than I am. But that is a pronouncement
from the chair. I go with it.”

"We are all connected; to each other biologically, to the earth chemically, to the rest of the universe atomically."

"So you're made of detritus [from exploded stars]. Get over it. Or better yet, celebrate it. After all, what nobler thought can one cherish than that the universe lives within us all?"
-Neil DeGrasse Tyson
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2004 :  05:59:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
Historical? Not likely when the guy probably never existed.

Never seen ET either.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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Renae
SFN Regular

543 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2004 :  06:21:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Renae a Private Message
While I agree the fuss is probably much ado over nothing, I have to take exception with the tone of some of your words, C88.

Telling Jews, or anyone, to "suck it up" is rude and dismissive. It shows no respect at all for what might be valid feelings on the other person's part.

Do you think the Jews have a valid point at all? Have they experienced any persecution in recent years *coughHolocaustcough* that might contribute to their reaction?

I'm a huge film buff and may see the movie for those reasons. I read somewhere, though, that Christian churches are planning to have people waiting outside theaters to "answer questions people may have" or some such thing. Ugh. Talk about ruining a perfectly good afternoon at the movies....
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2004 :  07:16:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Renae

While I agree the fuss is probably much ado over nothing, I have to take exception with the tone of some of your words, C88.

Telling Jews, or anyone, to "suck it up" is rude and dismissive. It shows no respect at all for what might be valid feelings on the other person's part.

Do you think the Jews have a valid point at all? Have they experienced any persecution in recent years *coughHolocaustcough* that might contribute to their reaction?

I'm a huge film buff and may see the movie for those reasons. I read somewhere, though, that Christian churches are planning to have people waiting outside theaters to "answer questions people may have" or some such thing. Ugh. Talk about ruining a perfectly good afternoon at the movies....



Yeah. I read somewhere (forget where; sorry, no reference) that they are planning to use it as an evangeletic (is that a word?) tool.

To a student of human nature, one with a nasty sense of humor, the whole issue reeks of the ridiculous.

To a student of human nature, one who reads history for the joy of it, it's a little unsettling.


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2004 :  07:49:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Renae

While I agree the fuss is probably much ado over nothing, I have to take exception with the tone of some of your words, C88.

Telling Jews, or anyone, to "suck it up" is rude and dismissive. It shows no respect at all for what might be valid feelings on the other person's part.

Do you think the Jews have a valid point at all? Have they experienced any persecution in recent years *coughHolocaustcough* that might contribute to their reaction?

I'm a huge film buff and may see the movie for those reasons. I read somewhere, though, that Christian churches are planning to have people waiting outside theaters to "answer questions people may have" or some such thing. Ugh. Talk about ruining a perfectly good afternoon at the movies....



I believe you have hit the nail on the head with this one. The idea of Jews being the Christ killer is not new. It was used by the Catholic church to justify forced conversions of Jews and expulsions of Jews from European countries.

Here's a couple of questions, would you, Creation 88, object to a film which focused on the excesses of the Catholic church? How about one which focused on the Evangelical Fundamentalist movement in a bad light?

I seem to remember quite a dust up over the marginal and boring movie called "The Last Temptation of Christ".

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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furshur
SFN Regular

USA
1536 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2004 :  11:56:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send furshur a Private Message
Oddly enough, I agree with Creation in principle. It is just a movie so don't sweat the small stuff. The fear (as demonstrated by the odd statement "they killed Christ") is that this is another reason to allow prejudice to be legitamized. Assuming that the MG passion is completely historically accurate - the jews still did not kill Christ. Individuals (who were jewish) killed Christ, again according to Mel.
It is along the lines of, 'Islam is not responsible for 9/11, a group of psychos is'.


If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know.
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Maglev
Skeptic Friend

Canada
65 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2004 :  13:28:02   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Maglev's Homepage  Send Maglev an ICQ Message Send Maglev a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Here's a couple of questions, would you, Creation 88, object to a film which focused on the excesses of the Catholic church? How about one which focused on the Evangelical Fundamentalist movement in a bad light?

I seem to remember quite a dust up over the marginal and boring movie called "The Last Temptation of Christ".



A recent Costa-Gavras film called Amen did just that in France. It is a movie about the Catholic Church's indiference to the Shoah. The movie did cause a stir, but not as much as the poster (do have a look )

I remember seeing pissed-off Christians in front of the movie theatre when I went to see The Last Temptation. I'm apparently going to Hell. A well.

Maglev

"The awe it inspired in me made the awe that people talk about in respect of religious experience seem, frankly, silly beside it. I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day."
--Douglas Adams, on evolutionary biology.
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byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"

USA
166 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2004 :  15:32:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send byhisgrace88 an AOL message Send byhisgrace88 a Private Message
quote:
Here's a couple of questions, would you, Creation 88, object to a film which focused on the excesses of the Catholic church? How about one which focused on the Evangelical Fundamentalist movement in a bad light?


I would not object to these things at all, if it's to the best of there ability, true to the facts. And I hope that someone DOES make a movie about the excesses of the Roman Catholic Church. I dis-agree with there beliefs on almost everything.
quote:

"Gladiator," by the way, portrays ancient Romans behaving badly (not Greeks
)

I did realize this after I had posted it. I was confused because the city of Rome, is in Greece. So that threw me off.

quote:
Historical? Not likely when the guy probably never existed.


You can dis-agree with exactly how things hapened, but almost nobody says that Jesus never exsisted. The facts are to clear to say that he did not.

quote:
Do you think the Jews have a valid point at all? Have they experienced any persecution in recent years *coughHolocaustcough* that might contribute to their reaction?


To be honest, I think they have no point at all. Like I said, Iam not anti-Jew at all. It makes me sick to think about the Holocaust, and the millions of Jews that died there. But that does not have ANYTHING to do with there not wanting this movie to be released. It's much like me saying that some movie about slaves, in the south should not be released, because it put us white folks in a bad light. I hate that we enslaved thousands of African-American people. Buit i live with it, and the consequences of what my people did.

Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis
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Jarrid
Skeptic Friend

101 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2004 :  16:00:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Jarrid an AOL message Send Jarrid a Private Message
Well actually it was a Roman punishment. Crucifixion was a very popular method of the death penalty by the Romans.

I don't have to go swimming through an outhouse to know I wouldn't like it."
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Jarrid
Skeptic Friend

101 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2004 :  16:10:45   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Jarrid an AOL message Send Jarrid a Private Message
And I thought Rome was in Italy?

I don't have to go swimming through an outhouse to know I wouldn't like it."
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Renae
SFN Regular

543 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2004 :  16:21:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Renae a Private Message
C88, are you saying that history has no bearing on the present?

Jews have a history of being persecuted--a VERY RECENT history, relatively speaking. Some Jewish people believe they are still persecuted (or discriminated against) even today. I don't know whether they are or not; since I'm not Jewish, I don't think it's for me to say.

If I were a Jew, I'd get tired of hearing Christians say, "The Jews killed Jesus." And I wouldn't take too kindly to a movie that furthered that belief.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25977 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2004 :  17:10:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
Creation88 wrote:
quote:
It's much like me saying that some movie about slaves, in the south should not be released, because it put us white folks in a bad light. I hate that we enslaved thousands of African-American people. Buit i live with it, and the consequences of what my people did.
Um, you're 16 years old. You had no part whatsoever to do with enslaving thousands of Africans. Why should you feel like you would have to "live with it" at all? Have any of your direct ancestors ever owned slaves in America? Lots of Southerners didn't, you know.

The idea that descendants of some racial and/or geographical group should feel responsibility for something which:

A) did not involve 100% of the group, and
B) the descendants had no control over (due to not having been born)

leaves me scratching my head.

Creation88, if you are going to maintain that all the Jews in existence 2,000 years ago conspired to kill Jesus (if he even existed, which is a matter for another repetition of the "Did Jesus Really Exist" mega-thread), you're going to have to cough up some evidence to that effect.

Naming a passage in the Bible which translates to "all the Jews killed Jesus" might be a good start.

Oh, Renae: I'm not a Jew, but I've been tired of hearing Christians say "the Jews killed Jesus" for years now.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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