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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
 Posted - 02/12/2004 : 22:39:36 [Permalink]
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Robb wrote:quote:
This is true, but my point was that the bible does not teach us to feel guilty about our sin. Would you agree that the daughter has no reason to feel guily? Is she guilty of her fathers death?
Of course the daughter has no rational reason to feel guilty, but that doesn't mean she won't. Grief is not often rational.quote:
The bible teaches us to be free from sin. I agree that we sometimes feel guilt. Consider the following passages:...
Unfortunately, I have two problems with your quotes:
1) In both, the pronouns appear to refer to Israel, and not everybody everywhere. In Isaiah, "your" assuredly refers to either Jacob or Israel, definitely not anybody. Also, in Hebrews 8, God is trying to cut yet another deal, and it seems obvious that His forgiveness is conditional (upon Israel keeping its end of the covenant - has it?).
2) In no less than 15 instances sprinkled throughout the Old Testament, God assures us that the sins of fathers guarantee punishments for their sons, starting with the curse put on Canaan for the sin (?) of Ham.
In general, I'm not sure that not feeling guilty about anything is a good motivator for being free from sin. Most of the rest of the Bible appears to say (paraphrasing) "do as I, your LORD, command or else you'll feel my wrath." Even Jesus speaks of people being tossed into a lake of fire.
Now, since I've got major ethical problems with the whole "just accept Jesus as your Saviour and you'll get into Heaven" thing, perhaps I'm coming at this from an entirely different perspective than you are. The entire idea of being able to break each and every Commandment (either the popular ten or the Big Two or any of dozens of others you'd care to name) every day of one's life (were one so inclined), and then "accepting Jesus" five seconds before death and being rewarded for such behaviour frankly makes me sick. As does the idea that one can "accept Jesus" as a child, and then do whatever the heck one pleases for the rest of one's life, assured of not winding up in Hell.
So, perhaps you should go into more detail about what you mean by "The bible teaches us to be free from sin" before I continue any further. My first reaction, given my ethical bias, wasn't very pleasant. Please show me that I've gotten the wrong impression from what you've written. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2004 : 22:58:36 [Permalink]
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Creation88 wrote:quote:
First of all. I am not in any way singleing out Jews.
But you did. Among other things, you titled this thread, Jews need to get over "Passion".quote:
This is just the most relevent to the subject at this point in time. And it happens to be on something I care about deeply. All I am really saying is that, if someone to the best of there ability makes a historic movie.(i know many argue that too) But that if even if it was a ficticious story. That's the way the story went, so don't complain about it.
Wait a minute. Are you saying this whole Jews/Passion thing is just an example? Are you saying that if someone tries to make a historical film, but screws it up by painting with too broad a brush, that whoever gets included (however accidentally) in the wide brushstrokes should just shut up about it, and not try to set the record straight?
If I understand you, let's try a hypothetical. Let's say there's a murder in your school, committed by a single Fundamentalist Christian. Someone comes along and makes a film about the murder, but portrays all of the Fundamentalists as being nasty, evil people who don't think twice about killing their schoolmates. You wouldn't think about raising your voice in protest at being included like that? You think you should "suck it up," even though you, personally, had nothing to do with the planning or execution of the murder in question?
(The above, of course, assumes that you haven't killed anybody in school. If you did, feel free to pick a different hypothetical generally immoral act for the film - rape, grand larceny, whatever - one you did not commit.) |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2004 : 05:52:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by creation88
I just want to clear up a couple things.
Then begin by clearing up your pathetic and alarming ignorance, and your (presumably naive) willingness to embrace/champion a film, sponsored by the right wing son of a Holocaust denier, on a topic without historical basis and guaranteed to promote the most virulent antisemitism. |
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2004 : 06:14:51 [Permalink]
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C88, please read Dave's post. It's excellent.
You didn't answer my question, though. So let me repeat:
Who are you to tell people how they should feel about anything?
We all have different life experiences, cultures, values, etc. that shape how we react to external events. That's Human Nature 101 for you.
Also, please don't assume that ANY Hollywood movie has any degree of historical accuracy on ANY subject. Please do your own research and draw your own conclusion about what actually happened (and no, I'm not referring to research as "reading the Bible.") I would do it for you here but I religious wars bore me.
I'm posting this because I think you're a smart kid. I think it would be good for you to step out of your environment from time to time and learn about people, things, and ideas that are different from what you hear every day. JMO.
Believe it or not, a white male Christian perspective is only ONE perspective of many. 
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2004 : 11:32:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Robb
The fist question I had was a real one. I don't know of any other sources independent from the bible that supports the existence of Jesus. Let me know if you know of any. What I was trying to say is that if the bible is not true then it seems there is little proof who killed Jesus or that he even existed so there is no point to the discussion.
As pointed out by DaveW. Josephus, however, there is considerable literary criticism regarding the inclusion of the bit about Jesus, so keep that in mind also.
quote:
Following Jesus is not about guilt, although some christians teach that. I did not mean to convey that message. It is about being a disciple of Jesus. The New Testament teaches that disciples of Jesus should abide by his teachings out of love for him and others. Our sinful nature led Jesus to die for us so he could save our lives. If a father jumped in front of a gunman's bullet to save his daughters life, is the child to blame for her fathers death? No. The father made a decision based on love for his daughter. This is what Jesus did for all of us. He jumped in front of our sin so we would not meet the consequences of our sin, death.
I think the argument can be made that most religions are built around guilt. It is one way to keep people in a society controlled or towing the line as it were. The New Tewstament also teaches following through fear of being cast into the lake of fire where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. It also teaches that you should gather those of us who have heard of the Christ but do not believe into faggots of wood and burn them. (This is also in the NT.)
quote:
The bible is silent on why the crucifixion happened when it did. It is a question I do not have an answer to. In addition, about people that never heard of God or Jesus, I also do not have an answer to. I will have to study these questions further.
Suppose that's why you hear the often said, 'Go forth and spread the good news.' Why you have missionaries. Are they, those who never heard of Israel or Jesus at that time also responsible for his death? You implied that 'we all' are responsible. So you are blaming the Maori of whom many still haven't heard of Christ?
quote:
If you mean that Adam committed the first sin than yes I do and yes, I do believe in the biblical account of creation.
You extensively quote from NIV, I'm curious regarding your denomination now. NIV is generally used by the catholic church, to the best of my knowledge. Are you catholic? You needn't answer. I find it odd that a catholic (having been indoctrinated as one when a child) believes the biblical stories literally. But then, I could never really take them literally in any case, so perhaps that's my short-sightedness. |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2004 : 17:24:27 [Permalink]
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Trish wrote
quote:
I think the argument can be made that most religions are built around guilt. It is one way to keep people in a society controlled or towing the line as it were.
Who is controlling Christians? I don't know of too many governments where they use Christianity to control the population. Most governments that try to control a population try to get rid of Christianity.
quote:
The New Tewstament also teaches following through fear of being cast into the lake of fire where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. It also teaches that you should gather those of us who have heard of the Christ but do not believe into faggots of wood and burn them. (This is also in the NT.)
If there was no judgment for sin why would we need Christ? Why would a loving God sent someone to hell? Another question is why would God allow a sinful person into heaven? Gods character will not accept peoples sin. If he passed judgment on us out of his holiness we would all go to hell. If he has love without standards, it would not be love at all. If a father does not discipline his child, he is doing the child no favors. A loving father will discipline his children.
quote:
Suppose that's why you hear the often said, 'Go forth and spread the good news.' Why you have missionaries. Are they, those who never heard of Israel or Jesus at that time also responsible for his death? You implied that 'we all' are responsible. So you are blaming the Maori of whom many still haven't heard of Christ?
This is a good objection. One I may not be able to satisfy. But here it goes.
Christians have a clear command from God to spread the good news to others. (Mat 28:19-20.) If we don't do this we are sinning against God. However, what if we don't reach everybody?
C. S. Lewis wrote:
quote:
“Is it not frightfully unfair that this new life should be confined to people who have heard of Christ and been able to believe in Him? But the truth is God has not told us what His arrangements about other people are. We do know that no man can be saved except through Christ; we do not know that only those who know Him can be saved through Him. But in the meantime, if you are worried about the people outside, the most unreasonable thing you can do is remain outside yourself.
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me” John 14:6 NIV
Jesus makes it clear that he is the only way to the gift of salvation. But does it also mean that if you have never heard of Jesus that you will be condemned to hell? There are old testament examples of people that lived before Christ were saved by their faith.
“By faith Abraham, even though he was past age--and Sarah herself was barren--was enabled to become a father because he[1] considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.
13All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. 14People who say su |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2004 : 17:39:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
Who is controlling Christians? I don't know of too many governments where they use Christianity to control the population. Most governments that try to control a population try to get rid of Christianity.
The way I see it Christianity was created by Constantine as part of a power struggle with the religious wing. He banned any religion except for the one he created out of bits and pieces of other religions so that he could control yet another aspect of people's lives and placed himself at the control of this region.
I think that flies in the face of what you said. Governments that tried to remove Chrisitanity do the same thing Canstantine did. They want to remove the churches control over people so that they can have more sway over people. It's all about power. When Constantine did it there were hundreds of different religions vying for spiritual power. Constantine swept them aside and gave the population the option of his single state-run religion. Modern governments like the communists recognized the influence of the church and sought to give the state the power Constantine consolodated into his state religion.
So it's not exactly the way you phrased it. The governments are trying to take complete control over their populations in exactly the same way Constantine did.
@tomic |
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2004 : 21:10:08 [Permalink]
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Thanks @.
Robb, also consider, that Christianity was the power that swept across Europe. One of the reasons that we have a separation of church and state in the US. The Nazi's used religion as a tool. That is what religion has been in the hands of those who seek power. It is a tool used to put control in the hands of a very few.
Here's an idea, read Jared Diamonds: Guns, Germs, and Steel. He explains the rise of religious power concepts in better form than I ever could.
quote:
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me” John 14:6 NIV
First, the concept of 'God as Father' must be shown to be real. Then 'Jesus as Son of the Father' must be shown to be real. Then we can discuss whether this statement is true.
quote:
Jesus makes it clear that he is the only way to the gift of salvation. But does it also mean that if you have never heard of Jesus that you will be condemned to hell? There are old testament examples of people that lived before Christ were saved by their faith.
After OT came the NT, and 'You can only come to the Father through ME (being Jesus).' So, the rules were changed. So the one whose never heard of Jesus seems to be condemned without chance.
quote:
“By faith Abraham, even though he was past age--and Sarah herself was barren--was enabled to become a father because he[1] considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.
Again, see above.
quote:
13All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. 14People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16Instead, they were longing for a better country--a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.” Heb 11:11-16 NIV
again, see above, this seems to have been changed by one little comment.
quote:
In Acts 10:30-33 Cornelius prayed to God and God answered his prayer by sending Peter to tell him.
Also In Romans 1:19-20 Paul writes that all people have some concept of god. If a God loves us so much, He will sacrifice himself for us, is it not reasonable to assume that he will do what is right in his judgment of us. It is an unclear issue at best. What is clear is that if you do know about Christ and refuse to seek him, you will not be saved.
But saved from what, what, according to some, god made me? This is confusing. If god knew I would be atheist why let me be in the first place? Doesn't make sense to me.
Robb,
Religion doesn't really bother. If you feel comfortable with religion great. But it's that little bit about going out and spreading the good news that bothers me. I've read the bible, yes, the NIV first, then some of the others. Here's my problem, I've made my decisions regarding belief, and the simple fact is that I can not find it in me to believe without good solid reproduceable evidence. This means that I can't believe the bible or any other religious text I've come across. I really don't need you or another preaching at me or telling me the 'good news' because I've read it and decided that it's not all the 'good news' it's made out to be.
Though I do enjoy the debate and give and take, especially when I'm not being told I'm going to hell. Keep it coming, you're one of the few that's willing to discuss rationally their faith. |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2004 : 22:15:53 [Permalink]
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Robb wrote:quote:
Who is controlling Christians?
Christian leaders. This seems obvious to me. Every single Christian leader who claims to have a "flock" has something to lose if his flock just stops believing. For example, there are thousands of churches, containing much in the way of creature comforts (if not brazen luxury), which would simply close if people just decided to quit being Catholic one day, ending the livelihoods of numerous preists, bishops, cardinals, and even the Pope. Everyone - not just Catholics - who depends upon people believing in Christ in order to put food on their own table has a stake in creating, maintaining and amplifying other peoples' faith in God. And with so much at stake, they have a great motivator to control and even manipulate the people who walk into their churches.
Obviously, the extreme examples are the Televangelists, who are not only responsible for generating enough income to feed their own families, but who also need to pay their crews and for TV time. And even this lot have their own extremists: the television faith-healers, who most definitely control and manipulate their viewers with false promises of miraculous healings in exchange for many, many dollars.
Less extreme, but no less controlling, is any church leader who claims that 10% off the top of your income is required, or you'll end up in hell. Almost every level of control can be found among Christians.
And other religions, too. This is by no means unique to Christianity. Religion as a means of control is very popular, as you can make promises (for a wonderful afterlife, including a large number of virgins, for example) that you never have to keep yourself.quote:
I don't know of too many governments where they use Christianity to control the population. Most governments that try to control a population try to get rid of Christianity.
You're forgetting the time(s) when the Church was the government. Most of Europe was ruled by the Church during the Dark Ages, a time in which speaking out against the Pope ("rebelling") was punishable by death.
Nowadays, George Bush is widely promoting his own faith to attempt to control more votes. Eliminating Christianity is the furthest thing from his mind, yet he would obviously like a much more docile and controllable populace. The key, again, is mixing religion with government, which he is attempting to do on several levels.quote:
...If a father does not discipline his child, he is doing the child no favors. A loving father will discipline his children.
Since you brought up the analogy of God/father and sinner/child, let's examine it more fully.
I'm the father of toddler. If my kid does something I don't approve of, I tell him so in no uncertain words. If he does it again in spite of what I've just told him, he gets an immediate timeout (one minute per year of age), followed by immediate forgiveness. This method works, as my son behaves better, and receives fewer and fewer timeouts as time goes by, since he's learned that he's got to listen to me and to his mother.
Now, let's say I sin against God, by not spreading His word. I receive no admonitions from Him about me not listening to Him, and no immediate punishment: no discipline whatsoever. After I die, however, I am allegedly forever prohibited from communing with God, and spend eternit |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2004 : 23:01:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
Also, please don't assume that ANY Hollywood movie has any degree of historical accuracy on ANY subject. Please do your own research and draw your own conclusion about what actually happened (and no, I'm not referring to research as "reading the Bible.") I would do it for you here but I religious wars bore me.
I'm posting this because I think you're a smart kid. I think it would be good for you to step out of your environment from time to time and learn about people, things, and ideas that are different from what you hear every day. JMO.
Believe it or not, a white male Christian perspective is only ONE perspective of many.
If you think I am a smrt kid, then please start talking to me as if you really believe that. Everyone seems to assume that because I am only 15, I must have taken what I was force fed by my parents. Shut out every other option as just stupid because thats not what I believe.
It may come as a shock to everyone, but "fundies" as you so condesendingly call us. Are just as smart and logical as every one else. You would never admit it, but you know that you think we must be just a little slower than most. If you say otherwise, you are either lieing through your teeth, or being "naive" as someone so nicely called me. Nobody could put up a post giving a link to "Fundies Say the Darndest Things". Playing off the TV show comparing us to CHILDREN!
People don't seem to realize that maybe I HAVE done some homework on what I believe. Maybe I'm not repeating what my parents or my pastor told me. Maybe I'm just saying what I believe and being critisized, for being "closed minded".
What did you really think that I thought Renae????? Yes I think that my "white male religion" is the only opinion out there. I'm totally dense and stupid obviously and don't know what I'm talking about because only a person in that state of mind could think something that naive.
So believe it or not I HAVE studied both the pro's and cons of evolution theories, religion, my stance on abortion. And have come to a conclusion on what I believe.
Look, if you don't believe what I believe, then I am disappointed.
But to be honest I don't care that much and in my opinion it's your loss. Not mine! But please, no mater what you believe. Give some respect where it is so lacking. Don't talk down to or about Christians. Even if you think we do, we don't talk about you when your not there. So just please try to do the same for us.
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Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis |
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byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2004 : 23:04:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Also, please don't assume that ANY Hollywood movie has any degree of historical accuracy on ANY subject. Please do your own research and draw your own conclusion about what actually happened (and no, I'm not referring to research as "reading the Bible.") I would do it for you here but I religious wars bore me.
I'm posting this because I think you're a smart kid. I think it would be good for you to step out of your environment from time to time and learn about people, things, and ideas that are different from what you hear every day. JMO.
Believe it or not, a white male Christian perspective is only ONE perspective of many.
If you think I am a smrt kid, then please start talking to me as if you really believe that. Everyone seems to assume that because I am only 15, I must have taken what I was force fed by my parents. Shut out every other option as just stupid because thats not what I believe.
It may come as a shock to everyone, but "fundies" as you so condesendingly call us. Are just as smart and logical as every one else. You would never admit it, but you know that you think we must be just a little slower than most. If you say otherwise, you are either lieing through your teeth, or being "naive" as someone so nicely called me. Nobody could put up a post giving a link to "Fundies Say the Darndest Things". Playing off the TV show comparing us to CHILDREN! And still say thats not talking down to us like were stupid.
People don't seem to realize that maybe I HAVE done some homework on what I believe. Maybe I'm not repeating what my parents or my pastor told me. Maybe I'm just saying what I believe and being critisized, for being "closed minded".
What did you really think that I thought Renae????? Yes I think that my "white male religion" is the only opinion out there. I'm totally dense and stupid obviously and don't know what I'm talking about because only a person in that state of mind could think something that naive.
So believe it or not I HAVE studied both the pro's and cons of evolution theories, religion, my stance on abortion. And have come to a conclusion on what I believe.
Look, if you don't believe what I believe, then I am disappointed.
But to be honest I don't care that much and in my opinion it's your loss. Not mine! But please, no mater what you believe. Give some respect where it is so lacking. Don't talk down to or about Christians. Even if you think we do, we don't talk about you when your not there. So just please try to do the same for us.
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Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis |
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byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2004 : 23:05:53 [Permalink]
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| sorry about the doube post.....the second one is slightly edited, and more what i wanted to say |
Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2004 : 04:46:37 [Permalink]
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You can delete the first post if you want.
Otherwise intelligent and mature people fall into all sorts of scams and delusions. We all have had and will continue to have false beliefs about certain things. That doesn't make us deficient as humans.
Our beliefs are the filter through which we look at the world. If we believe that life is not acceptable as it is, we create illusions which attempt to make it acceptable or we do what we can to escape from life in a number of ways. If we decide on the path of illusions, because we know we created these illusions, the basic belief that life is not acceptable as it is still exists. Yes, we seem to feel good after performing some ritual or stating some cleansing affirmation, but those things are temporary. The belief that life is not good enough, that we are not good enough as we are, still exists.
Today you are cleansed of your "sins," but tomorrow you sin again. Even if you don't, you must always be on your guard as "Evil" seeks to claim you for its own.
I have heard many people express in one way or another that life would be meaningless or valueless without some kind of God/Creator. This tells me that those people start from the idea that life, their life, is not worth much to them, that they must gain worth by doing something which gives them worth. A similar kind of self-esteem is one where someone attempts to gain value by showing how little others are worth, or by actually stealing something from others. That person does not believe that they're worth much at all. Those kind of people, and we've all been that kind of people in one way or another, have to bring others down in order to try to give themselves the illusion of building themselves up.
More preferable to me is the ability to look at life from right where we are and having the understanding that there are no gods that we need to please. More preferable to me is the ability to look at life and understand that there are no gods to test us. More preferable to me is the ability to look at life and understand that everything is perfect as it is in that there are no gods to judge it and make its existence "wrong" and that nothing is perfect as it is in the sense that there is no static paradise that is attainable. Beginning with the idea that life has value, we do not need to do something to gain self-worth. Once seeing the value that life has we can instead look within ourselves for ways to contribute and increase the value that life holds for us and for all instead of always trying to gain value by taking it from something else and by creating illusions of value.
You don't need gods to appreciate life. In fact, only when you drop the need for illusions does reality become available for you to appreciate. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2004 : 08:53:42 [Permalink]
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C88, even if you are only 15, posting from Victimland won't get you very far with me.  Nobody, least of all me, is persectuing you, oppressing you, or judging you.
You said that Jewish people need to not complain about the past, "suck it up", and that they killed Jesus. Those statements could easily be construed as bigotry--yet I didn't even call them that. What I and others said, instead, is that you appear to not understand the perspective of many Jewish people.
Jews have every right to whatever reaction they want to have about "The Passion of the Christ." Christians have every right to THEIR views on it, too.
And to an agnostic like me, it all looks like petty squabbling over one man's artistic vision. 
Edited to add: I DO think you're smart, C88. When I was fifteen, I'm not sure how much of an appreciation I had for worlds beyond my own. Probably not much, given the fact I was a Spoiled Angry Young White Chick. I was an avowed atheist then, because my grandfather had died the year before and people kept telling me "Grandpa's with God". I wanted nothing to do with a God that had taken my dear grandpa, whom I still needed depserately.
Hats off to you, C88, for having the courage to speak your mind. Apologies if I sounded disrespectful. |
| Edited by - Renae on 02/14/2004 09:38:38 |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2004 : 12:01:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by creation88
If you think I am a smrt kid, then please start talking to me as if you really believe that.
I, for one, would never suggest something so contrary to the evidence available.
quote:
Originally posted by creation88
It may come as a shock to everyone, but "fundies" as you so condesendingly call us. Are just as smart and logical as every one else.
Some fundamentalists are quite intelligent, many more are capable of generating proper sentences, and some are little more than ignorant fools.
quote:
Originally posted by creation88
People don't seem to realize that maybe I HAVE done some homework on what I believe.
This is, perhaps, because you conceal it so effectively.
quote:
Originally posted by creation88
Give some respect where it is so lacking. Don't talk down to or about Christians.
You neither reflect nor represent Christians. Cretinous fundamentalism is an embarrassment to much of modern day Christianity much as Mel Gibson and his father are an embarrassment to the Vatican. What "is so lacking" is any reason to respect such a pathetic and reprehensible ignorance.
quote:
Q. Who else shares ADL's objections?
A. The concerns are shared by responsible Catholic, Protestant and Jewish theologians, clergy and citizens. A committee of nine Jewish and Catholic scholars studied an early screenplay and unanimously found it to be historically inaccurate, unfaithful to the gospel narratives and to project a uniformly negative picture of Jews. Mr. Gibson and his Icon Productions were aware of and approved of the script study until they received its conclusions.
- see ADL and Mel Gibson's "The Passion of the Christ"
You simply don't know what you don't know, and you're rapidly reaching the point where your age no longer excuses your ignorance. Where you go from here is your choice. I hope you choose wisely.
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For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
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