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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
 Posted - 02/14/2004 : 22:39:00
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Here's something I was skeptical of from the beginning: the threat of Iraq! Let's see, a third rate Arab country whose army we decimated back in '91, with a leader so coniving and evil that he made Hitler to blush, the one, the only Saddam Hussein! I'm shaking in my boots just thinking about the horrible threat he posed to America and the world. The thousands of warships in his arsenal, the tons of thermonuclear warheads poised and ready to strike at a madman's notice. The thousands of gallons of nerve gas and other deadly weapons of mass destruction, ready and fitted to the high tech multi-stage rockets being mass produced in missle factories. The millions of highly trained elite forces, ready to strike by land, sea, and air. The formidable air fleet with supersonic jets, bombers, helicopters, and stealth fighters. I could go on and on. But, whoops, was I describing Iraq? No, it fits the description of the United States, though, and maybe the former Soviet Union, but certainly not Iraq. So what do you make of it, should we have invaded Iraq or not? Should America have a first strike, preemptive policy of war? Your thoughts.
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Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
Edited by - Doomar on 02/15/2004 00:14:27
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2004 : 02:39:44 [Permalink]
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Greetings and welcome back, Doomar!
Why did we go to war in Iraq? And why were we in such a hurry? From what I've read, this thing was planned from the first day our current administration sleezed it's way into office. All they needed was a more or less plausable excuse, and 9-11 provided that.
Saddam is an evil fellow, no two ways about it. I am delighted that he's in custody and hope to see him handed over to the Iraqis for long overdue justice soon, but at what physical and ethical cost?
Well over 500 Americans killed and thousands injured, and I'm reading that over 10,000 Iraqi civilians killed -- nobody knows how many Iraqis have been wounded.
I think that the whole Iraq thing could have been handled in a much more intellegent and civilized way. Our government has shown an appalling lack of morals and ethics, and only now, far too late for the victims, are we beginning to question it in any kind of serious way.
It is what happens when we allow a pathetic numbskull to 'lead' the country. It is what happens when the American electorate fails to pay attention.
So you see, it is our doing; me and thee, bro, who are ultimatly responsible. The Bush administration, through fearmongering and falsehood, made it happen, and we let it.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2004 : 08:42:37 [Permalink]
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| "We" didn't go to war in Iraq. Bush and his band of criminals attacked Afghanistan and they attacked Iraq. Why is this man not only not in prison, but still in office? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2004 : 09:16:40 [Permalink]
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Dear Filthy,
Thanks for the greeting. I agree with your overall view expressed about the Iraq war. I am focusing on this doctrine of pre-emptive war, because I believe it is so very dangerous. Not only is it contrary to past policy, but it is promoting an evil attitude among Americans about the purpose of war (this will be discussed, hopefully). You mentioned the many deaths of Iraqi civilians and the American deaths, but you didn't mention how many soldiers/fighters have been killed on the Iraq side, along with the Brits and other coalition forces. It is strange how these numbers are conveniently dismissed (by most media), as though the deaths of those we kill in battle aren't really important. I would guess that it is far more than 10,000. In the first Gulf war, the estimate of those killed was between 100,000 and 300,000, a slaughter. Keep in mind that Iraqi soldiers, like ours, don't always agree with the ruler and were probably drafted. And what would we do if invaded by another country while we were in such a state of chaos because of a corrupt leader? We would fight back, also. What George Bush did was indeed evil. But the precedent he has set for going to war with anyone who is our enemy without provocation is a stage being set for a real WWIII.
Because we are still a representative government, Filthy, we have the power to do something about this. Let's encourage our fellow Americans to do their duty and vote their conscience. Only by more people voting and caring can America return to a quorum. I believe most Americans feel the way you and I do about this war. They've had the wool pulled over their eyes for whatever motivation the Bush administration had (most likely money, and possibly some confused ideology about promoting "democracy" in middle east). I say "they", because some of us disagreed with the president from the beginning about this war.
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Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
| Edited by - Doomar on 02/15/2004 09:18:02 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2004 : 17:51:54 [Permalink]
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| Pre-emptive war not past policy? If you forget about most of American History. Haiti, the Western Frontier, Yugoslavia.... |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2004 : 20:44:05 [Permalink]
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Ten years hostilities towards Iraq could have been avoided...
Saddam Hussein should have been brought to justice in the Gulf-war of 1991. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2004 : 22:03:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Ten years hostilities towards Iraq could have been avoided...
Saddam Hussein should have been brought to justice in the Gulf-war of 1991.
Agreed, Dr., however, were it to be done again, and time returned to before '91, I think a better solution could have been found. I don't believe it was America's place to intervene. I don't believe in sending our troops to fight other people's wars except when America's direct allies are involved, such as NATO countries, wherein we are committed to each other's defense. Such was our mistake in Vietnam. We, as Americans, really must examine why and when our country should go to war. It needs to become a national issue. The morality or immorality of situations must be considered, else how will we be any different from the terrorists? Shall the word of our president be sufficient to attack other nations, or should there be guidelines known and believed by the majority? |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2004 : 10:56:43 [Permalink]
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Dubya had the support of most of the world when he went into Afghanistan to get rid of the Taliban and capture Osama Bin Laden. If he would have completed what he had started and made a war torn country peaceful after years of conflict, he probably would have got to go into Iraq with the UN and the global community's blessing. The attempt to install a western style democracy in the Afghanistan could have been done at a fraction of the cost to the American economy and with a hell of a lot more assistance from America's allies, especially NATO. Unfortunately with their urgency to get into Iraq and the fighting and sometimes disrespectful words coming out of the mouths of Rumsfeld and Co, the support for America quickly evaporated. This administration lacks diplomacy.
If they had got it right in Afghanistan, or at least made it look that they were making progress, the excuse for regime change would have cut it with the general public. The feeble excuses about Weapons of Mass Destruction would never need to have been used and the neo-cons would not have been looked at with so much suspicion. We all knew that Saddam was an evil bastard but most of us knew that he was contained. This said, the world is better off without him. I do live in hope that the Iraqis can manage to form some kind of stable government. It's in all of our interests that they do.
I do believe that less conflict in the Middle East could reduce the amount of terrorism. I've said before in this forum that violence begets violence and oppression breeds terrorism. The only way to combat terrorism is to cut it off at the source. We can see from the constant carnage in Iraq that a complete lack of order makes a fertile breeding ground for terrorists. For every Iraqi killed in Gulf War II there is a potential for a relative to be pissed off and strike back. Against the might of the worlds greatest military there is only one option and that is terrorism. It worked in America and sent the Red Coats packing many moons ago.
From the evidence we have seen though, it is pretty clear that the events of 9/11 gave the administration the opportunity to go after Saddam. The problem was, they did it with minimal thought and no exit plan.
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Mistakes are a part of being human. Appreciate your mistakes for what they are: precious life lessons that can only be learned the hard way. Unless it's a fatal mistake, which, at least, others can learn from.
Al Franken |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2004 : 11:17:33 [Permalink]
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Actually, according to an international Gallup poll, the whole world wanted Bush to take care of the terrorist problems by other means. The governments of the world were told that they were either with us or against us, so they did what they were told. George Bush is a terrorist.
Saddam Hussein should have never been supported by the West, and we wouldn't be talking about him. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2004 : 11:48:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Actually, according to an international Gallup poll, the whole world wanted Bush to take care of the terrorist problems by other means. The governments of the world were told that they were either with us or against us, so they did what they were told. George Bush is a terrorist.
Saddam Hussein should have never been supported by the West, and we wouldn't be talking about him.
http://www.coxar.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/ 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2004 : 20:24:41 [Permalink]
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Against the might of the worlds greatest military there is only one option and that is terrorism. It worked in America and sent the Red Coats packing many moons ago.
Gezzam,
I agree with most of what you've said, except for this comparison of America's revolutionist with the terrorist. There are many and vast differences. One main difference was a strong belief in Judeo/Christian morality that prevented them from killing women and children and themselves, and also, a strong sense of law whereby they desired to be ruled with adequate representation, unlike Al Qada who are complete anarchists and just enjoy killing. These men who fought the revolution loved their families and wanted to return to them someday. They wanted to live in peace.
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Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
| Edited by - Doomar on 02/20/2004 20:31:14 |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2004 : 14:57:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
Here's a link to a great article on the Iraq War - A Christian Perspective by Pastor Steve Brown http://www.dands-construction.com/psweb/Iraqwar.htm or http://home.att.net/~dmr2701/Iraqwar.htm
Please read it and let me know your thoughts.
A very sensible article. I'm glad that there are christians that do not believe G.W. Bush is the second coming, but see him for what he is: A criminal.
The Rapture-Ready bulletin board banned me for saying I had a nightmare in which Bush was the anti-christ. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2004 : 15:34:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Ten years hostilities towards Iraq could have been avoided...
Saddam Hussein should have been brought to justice in the Gulf-war of 1991.
Bush I at the time didn't want the Shi'ites in power.
Better the devil you know than the one you don't. That's why they turned tail and let them get slaughtered.
Even now they are scared of them....the democracy that they keep taling about would inevitably be made of the Shi'ites, they are a majority and would hold power. Pure and simple.
Unfortunately it's not the democracy Bush II and co want...
Ironic methinks
Editied, spelling agian..... |
Mistakes are a part of being human. Appreciate your mistakes for what they are: precious life lessons that can only be learned the hard way. Unless it's a fatal mistake, which, at least, others can learn from.
Al Franken |
| Edited by - gezzam on 03/14/2004 15:36:45 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2004 : 03:58:19 [Permalink]
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Twenty some years of slaughter would not have taken place had not the CIA made sure that democracy would have no place in Iraq and the U.S. would have had the sense to bring George Bush I and Clinton to trial for their crimes. Now somehow the Democrats (not to mention Republicans) are afraid to use the word criminal when speaking of our dear leader. At least Kerry did it when he thought no one was listening.
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Ten years hostilities towards Iraq could have been avoided...
Saddam Hussein should have been brought to justice in the Gulf-war of 1991.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2004 : 00:13:04 [Permalink]
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[quote]Originally posted by Gorgo
Twenty some years of slaughter would not have taken place had not the CIA made sure that democracy would have no place in Iraq and the U.S. would have had the sense to bring George Bush I and Clinton to trial for their crimes.
Now you're losing me, Gorgo, in your seemingly incoherant train of thought. You've gotta fill in the details a bit more to explain how the CIA made sure there would not be democracy in Iraq. Also, how GB and Clinton should have gone to trial....kinda missing like most of whatever you are trying to say here. A few more details, please. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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