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kullervo
New Member
USA
1 Post |
 Posted - 06/08/2004 : 11:30:45 [Permalink]
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Luke speaks the truth - I've been at JREF for a few years now (as kullervo/whitefork, Luke), and my non-admin take on the situation is that the forum has begun to devour some of its own, for want of fresh meat. It's gotten rather heated, mean-spirited, and sometimes quite nasty. Maybe it's always been like that under the surface and I haven't noticed. There's still some very nice material being contributed, but in my opinion less of it has to do with scepticism than before.
I cut way back on my own posting, but that's mostly self-censorship - I ran out of interesting material.
So likewise, happy to be here.
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I think you dropped something, fella. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2004 : 12:42:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Luke T.
There is a lot of discussion, @tomic, in that you are so right. I understand if it is all confusing and hard to follow. Hell, it is confusing to those of us who have been in the middle of it. 
And since I left there, I have no idea what else has changed. I've signed up on the unaffiliated skepticalcommunity forum and have been on renata's forum since it began last year. Those are my new internet homes now.
It's just a crying shame to see a really great thing like the JREF forum be torn down and rebuilt in Hal's image.
Luke,
The "New Sherriff in Town" is sometimes a part of BBS evolution. (Some believe that this form is a dead end, I have personally seen it be so.) As @tomic alluded to, I was unable to see the underlying motivations and power plays due to the overwhelming amount of content.
It is usually an ill sign when an ego takes over a board. I have noticed that such changes rarely last due to various factors including the implosion of the ego and subsequent rush to fill the void by leveler heads.
I've been the sysop of a series of message boards and co-sysop of a few more. The games played on various boards remain similar from 1987. Egos rarely last very long. You can only hope that it won't cause the demise of the BBS before the system owner figures out what's going on. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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davefoc
New Member
1 Post |
Posted - 06/09/2004 : 01:21:49 [Permalink]
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I've been a regular participant over at JREF for a few years now. I was interested to see LukeT's take as he was a little closer to the situation than I was.
To the degree that I understand the situation, I think LukeT's summary was pretty good.
The JREF forum was about the only one I was familiar with. For me, it was a source of real pleasure. It was not only a place to discuss things with a wide variety of some of the brightest people that I have encountered in my life, it was also a chance to hang out with fellow skeptics, many of whom I got to know through their posts. I, like many of the other participants over there, have followed Randi's career for years and the forum tie-in with him was an extra bonus.
One of the things that didn't come out in LukeT's post that I might mention, was that many of us had quite a bit of respect and appreciation for Hal and his contributions to the forum.
So it was doubly difficult when he started ripping the forum a year or so ago. The final end to that first episode was some minor tweaking to the forum which I thought made it better (mine may have been a minority view) but only after the forum had been ripped with miscelaneous emotional attacks.
The second and current episode is more serious. I guess Hal's view is that the forum was reflecting badly on JREF and needed a major overhaul, most significantly the elimination of the community section. Unfortunately this change, coupled with the strange attacks of the forum participants and other statements about Hal's desires to never participate in the forum again didn't sit too well with a lot of people and many have left or are participating much less than previously.
One thing, I would like to add, and I think that Luke would agree with this. Hal and JREF are going out of their way to help get the new forum, http://skepticalcommunity.com/ up and running.
Lastly, I thought the precipitating event was some posts libeling Randi and not the poor taste jokes about the Iraqi prisoners. Whatever the precipitating event was, what has been put forth concerning the changes makes little sense based on the facts available to the forum participants. There was also a strange comment thrown in about the fact that JREF was not officially an atheist site (I don't think anybody thought JREF was officially an atheist site before the comment) although Randi makes his atheist views pretty clear. I don't know why that was said or what that had to do with the forum, but a lot of us moaned a little bit more after that comment.
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2004 : 08:42:49 [Permalink]
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If I could just chime in for one second, Vic Darling, I just wanted to say that the heading "JREF-ugees" really, really, made me laugh. 
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Luke T.
Skeptic Friend
140 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2004 : 09:06:11 [Permalink]
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Davefoc is correct in that many of us held Hal in the highest esteem, and no one held him higher than myself. I was a somewhat rabid supporter of Hal until matters of late. I have tried to avoid the typical defector's pendulous swing toward the oppposite end of the spectrum in my criticisms of his recent actions, but it hasn't been easy.
And davefoc is also correct that the foundation is bending over backwards in getting skepticalcommunity off the ground, and that includes Hal.
I was okay when the ban on foul language was implemented on JREF although I found the "kid safe" rationale very dubious and the "schools and libraries nannybots" to be full of assumptions that were shameful in the light of the fact we were a skeptics' site and these questionable assumptions were being swallowed whole by some in charge. I favored the foul language ban on purely moral (shock!) grounds.
The forum began suffering shutdowns and long delays apparently due to the server being full (that's what we were told), and the software being faulty. More than one "telethon" was run and money raised for new servers and software. And volunteers came forth offering to archive the forum and make the material available once a new server was installed. But Hal chose to start pruning topics, deleting them forever. It was an arbritrary and seemingly random selection. If one wanted to save an ancient topic for reference (assuming one could remember which topics one might need to refer to in the future), one was directed by Hal to "bump" the topic with a present-day post to make it current, as he would only delete files of a certain age and of no value (Hal's estimation).
That is when the noise level of protest over Hal's administration started to climb rather steeply.
This splitting of the forum has nothing to do with recent lawsuits. None at all. That is just the CURRENT excuse. Hal has been wanting to split the forum for quite a long time now.
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De_Bunk
New Member
USA
15 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2004 : 10:02:22 [Permalink]
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Guys...
Guess who...
DB |
De_Bunk..."Scourge of the Believer....(Ex-JREF Kid) |
| Edited by - De_Bunk on 06/09/2004 10:17:05 |
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Vic Daring
New Member
49 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2004 : 13:17:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
If I could just chime in for one second, Vic Darling, I just wanted to say that the heading "JREF-ugees" really, really, made me laugh.
I love when you call me darling. (Although I must admit I stole the phrase JREFugees.)
*******************************************
Thanks, Luke, for the detailed description. I was not close enough to the situation or well informed enough to offer any kind of useful information.
I am hopeful that skepcomm is successful and plan to register there. In the meantime, nice to see some familiar "faces" here.
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The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2004 : 18:21:16 [Permalink]
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| SFN isn't such a bad place to make your home you know. We have been at this for a while... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2004 : 07:42:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
SFN isn't such a bad place to make your home you know. We have been at this for a while...
Kil speaketh the truth. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Doctor X
Voluntary Exile
151 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2004 : 13:08:51 [Permalink]
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Greetings:
LukeT gives an enlightening description of what happened. From my perspective, I did not "buy" the explanations given for censorship and the split by "the Powers that Be." Thus, I am happy to read LukeT's explanation of the swearing bans. Not that I am big into swearing, damn it, but sometimes like spice an argument requires it.
I use to post regularly there, but ceased posting over one particular issue. Nothing personal or malicious--no ill-will towards Hal or anyone else. I "lurk'd" for some time.
During that time a particular poster "stirr'd the shit" frankly. While I agree with LukeT's assessment, I will note that this piece of excrement really caused a mess and, yes, some of his posts/threads--okay . . . ALL of his posts/threads potentially "reflected badly on the mission of the JREF and even the SuperFriends."
However, the solution was simple: ban his ass.
However, however, said piece of excrement tried to return as sockpuppets and "upped the ante" in offense.
ALSO . . . [ZZzzZZZzzZZZzzZZZzz--Ed.] there was yet ANOTHER poster who turned out to be a sympathy sucking fraud.
I think, therefore, Hal felt personally injured--by Piece of Shit and even Impostor--and, in a sense, used such abuses to color the forum in his mind. In otherwords, I am not sure he ever liked the "happy" or "funny" sense of the board, but the abuses struck home to him. Perhaps in his position I would have felt the same. I think I would have just resigned. Anyways, methinks he projected his view of the abuses to the whole board--such as the often quoted claim of his that "95-97%" of the posts one month had nothing to do with the "mission" [Tm.--Ed.] of the JREF.
Was that correct?
No, in my opinion. I think the "split" throws the baby out with the proverbial bathwater.
I started posting again because I felt the rules would be more consistent--though the place may very well be no "fun." As I have reminded "scholar-wannabes" on boards who decry humor, scholars have to have a sense of humor. It is a shame if such leaves the JREF.
My 13 cents. . . .
--J.D.
[Edited to clarify a point.--Ed.] |
His secrets are not sold cheaply.
It is perilous to waste his time. |
| Edited by - Doctor X on 06/11/2004 13:13:45 |
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ljbrs
SFN Regular
USA
842 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2004 : 18:00:42 [Permalink]
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I had a problem with JREF which I recently re-joined. I made one post and received a myriad of e-mails for weeks, announcing replies. I could not stop the flood. All but one of the posts announced in those e-mails had nothing to do with my single post. I was unable to stop the flood. The authorities on JREF made it very clear. Since I do not like spam e-mails, I have visited JREF to "read only" and have not made any additional posts there. I cannot block the e-mails and I cannot delete my single post. However, I can stop posting on JREF and most of the e-mails will eventually stop when the thread involved loses the interest of others at JREF.
I do not fault JREF itself (although I have not had the time to read most of its threads). I mind the e-mail spam which had nothing to do with replying to my single post.
Oh, yes, I am skeptcal of everything, even of myself. I love science (coming from a long line of physicists and/or natural philosophers). Nothing much really bothers me except when somebody attempts to proselytize me about believing in his/her silly ideas. I have enough of my own silly ideas, thank you!
ljbrs |
"Innumerable suns exist; innumerable earths revolve about these suns in a manner similar to the way the seven planets revolve around our sun. Living beings inhabit these worlds."
Giordano Bruno
(Burned at the stake by the Roman Catholic Church Inquisition in 1600) |
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Doctor X
Voluntary Exile
151 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2004 : 00:43:19 [Permalink]
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Did you check your control panel? I never had that problem. There is--as here I think--an "alert" for replies to topics.
--J.D. |
His secrets are not sold cheaply.
It is perilous to waste his time. |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2004 : 09:48:30 [Permalink]
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Hey LukeT, davefoc, De Bunk, I recognize you all from JREF.
I have a great respect for Hal and am sorry to hear of his difficulties. I wonder though, if this is in part related to his personal troubles, unrelated to JREF. He was extremely helpful with resolving situations that young atheists in the military were experiencing.
I stopped posting over at JREF about August of last year. So it would seem that I missed much of what happened. I've heard about the troubles at JREF and have not had the heart to attempt to visit and sort through the mess.
Glad to hear G6 is admining at the new board, she's always seemed level headed and savvy when dealing with people. |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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