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coberst
Skeptic Friend
182 Posts |
 Posted - 05/31/2004 : 05:19:29
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All animals are born with the instincts for survival. I would describe this instinct, as a programmed response system that causes an animal to behave in a manner that is conducive to the survival of that animal. The response is taken without thought and is, I guess, the best response for survival in a specific type situation.
Humans have added to this instinct another evolved ability to control behavior, which is reasoned response. Evidently this reasoned response system functions successfully, as it seems to further human survivability. It appears to me that reason has been a significant addition to instinct in improving the survivability of the human species.
Reason is a part of the human intellect. Another part of the human intellect is something we call consciousness. This consciousness has made us aware that we are mortal. Reason has increased our ability to survive and consciousness has made us aware of our death.
I would define reason as the human faculty that makes it possible for us to analyze facts and to develop logical conclusions.
Logic is a word that is used generally as applicable to the proper method of reasoning. In a broad sense logic is the set of standards and methods for the proper form of thinking about any endeavor. Driving a car has a logic, playing tennis has a logic, playing chess has a logic, thinking itself has a logic, building bridges has a logic, etc.
When reason analyzes the facts it sometimes comes to the conclusion that life has no meaning or purpose. I suspect that this abhorrence of discovering that life is without purpose or meaning is part of the reason humanity has developed and embraced religion. Religion provides this meaning and purpose for living.
It seems to me that the meaning and purpose of life can be something found or it can be something created. Religion finds meaning and purpose. It seems to me that secular humanism, universists, atheists, etc. must encourage people to create a meaning and purpose for life. Religion finds meaning and we, the non-religious, must create meaning. Reason is the human faculty that makes it possible for us to create that meaning and purpose of life.
Humanity needs a confidence that life has meaning. Those of us who cannot accept the meaning found by religion are forced to create that meaning because humanity seems unable to accept as fact that life has no meaning or purpose.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2004 : 07:45:42 [Permalink]
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Yes........
I have always thought that, due to our ability to comprehend and reason, many (most?) of us can't come to terms of an existance that lacks the unique, irreplacable Me. Thus, the prevelence of religions touting afterlife, reencarnation, and a little outside the realms of the religious, hauntings.
It is also nice to gloat over the concept of those you hate, or indeed merely disagree with, going to a most unpleasant place to spend eternity. And you gets to watch!  Or even better yet, you are given 70 and some-odd perpetual virgins to ravish and debauch all night long! 
We are a strange animal, are we not?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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| Edited by - filthy on 05/31/2004 07:52:33 |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2004 : 11:53:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by coberst
All animals are born with the instincts for survival. I would describe this instinct, as a programmed response system that causes an animal to behave in a manner that is conducive to the survival of that animal. The response is taken without thought and is, I guess, the best response for survival in a specific type situation.
Yes and some behaviors that make a species successful at survival are learned from successful parents.
quote:
When reason analyzes the facts it sometimes comes to the conclusion that life has no meaning or purpose. I suspect that this abhorrence of discovering that life is without purpose or meaning is part of the reason humanity has developed and embraced religion. Religion provides this meaning and purpose for living.
If you are suggesting that man has created religion and the required gods, then I agree with you.
quote:
It seems to me that the meaning and purpose of life can be something found or it can be something created. Religion finds meaning and purpose. It seems to me that secular humanism, universists, atheists, etc. must encourage people to create a meaning and purpose for life. Religion finds meaning and we, the non-religious, must create meaning. Reason is the human faculty that makes it possible for us to create that meaning and purpose of life.
Humanity needs a confidence that life has meaning. Those of us who cannot accept the meaning found by religion are forced to create that meaning because humanity seems unable to accept as fact that life has no meaning or purpose.
I disagree. If religion and the required gods are created by man, then any meaning of life derived from such constructs is created as well, by man. Fundamentally, religion cheapens the reality, reduces the significance of the only life we can be sure of.
edited: removed extra end quote |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
| Edited by - moakley on 05/31/2004 11:56:03 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2004 : 14:23:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
Humanity needs a confidence that life has meaning. Those of us who cannot accept the meaning found by religion are forced to create that meaning because humanity seems unable to accept as fact that life has no meaning or purpose.
Ah.... the meaning of life.... I know the answer! It's 42!
Seriously... 42, and the context it was first provided in (i.e. Douglas Adams' Hitchikers Guide series) is really an insightfull answer to the question. It's a nonsense answer, of course. But the question is a nonsense question. Why do you assume life requires a meaning? |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2004 : 17:03:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
Ah.... the meaning of life.... I know the answer! It's 42!
Dude !! You are so right. You must really know where your towel is. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2004 : 20:19:18 [Permalink]
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Dude is, indeed, one very hoopy frood, but I think that he missed the part where coberst seemed to be saying that humans in general seem to require life to have a meaning. It is one big joojooflop situation, but those who find solace in religion have created a deity with which to infuse their own lives with some sort of purpose. (In a similar fashion, I infuse my life with whatever purpose I can come up with that's palatable.) But I can still look at, for examples, wolves, and say, "they serve no purpose but to spread that particular genome, and even that is happenstance," and the same, obviously, can be said for me. I just hope that through what I do - the purpose I give myself - the brutality of life will be lessened (to some small extent) for those who come after me. That would give my life meaning beyond the fact that I have procreated.
No, really, I'm not all doom and gloom. Honest! Heck, I'm so hip I have trouble seeing over my pelvis. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2004 : 21:19:20 [Permalink]
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I'll accept the observation that many people seek meaning in life beyond what is readily apparent.
Personally, I find value in life itself and the varied human expressions of life. I have never felt a need to seek some metaphysical explanation of why I am here.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2004 : 13:14:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
They want a way to help everyone out, such as finding a new medicines or just helping a neighbor out with a problem.
Long term self interest. It is a behavior that promotes survival. Now.... is it learned or instinct? Don't know. Perhaps a bit of both? |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2004 : 16:10:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by coberst
All animals are born with the instincts for survival. I would describe this instinct, as a programmed response system that causes an animal to behave in a manner that is conducive to the survival of that animal. The response is taken without thought and is, I guess, the best response for survival in a specific type situation.
Humans have added to this instinct another evolved ability to control behavior, which is reasoned response. Evidently this reasoned response system functions successfully, as it seems to further human survivability. It appears to me that reason has been a significant addition to instinct in improving the survivability of the human species.
Reason is a part of the human intellect. Another part of the human intellect is something we call consciousness. This consciousness has made us aware that we are mortal. Reason has increased our ability to survive and consciousness has made us aware of our death.
I would define reason as the human faculty that makes it possible for us to analyze facts and to develop logical conclusions.
Logic is a word that is used generally as applicable to the proper method of reasoning. In a broad sense logic is the set of standards and methods for the proper form of thinking about any endeavor. Driving a car has a logic, playing tennis has a logic, playing chess has a logic, thinking itself has a logic, building bridges has a logic, etc.
When reason analyzes the facts it sometimes comes to the conclusion that life has no meaning or purpose. I suspect that this abhorrence of discovering that life is without purpose or meaning is part of the reason humanity has developed and embraced religion. Religion provides this meaning and purpose for living.
It seems to me that the meaning and purpose of life can be something found or it can be something created. Religion finds meaning and purpose. It seems to me that secular humanism, universists, atheists, etc. must encourage people to create a meaning and purpose for life. Religion finds meaning and we, the non-religious, must create meaning. Reason is the human faculty that makes it possible for us to create that meaning and purpose of life.
Humanity needs a confidence that life has meaning. Those of us who cannot accept the meaning found by religion are forced to create that meaning because humanity seems unable to accept as fact that life has no meaning or purpose.
I'm pretty sure there's no meaning or purpose to anything. (Other than the transport of information through time via the genetic code.) |
-Chaloobi
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2004 : 16:52:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
I'm pretty sure there's no meaning or purpose to anything.
Perhaps we should seperate the words meaning and purpose.
I think they are two different concepts and it would be beter to examine them independent of each other.
The purpose of life may well be as chaloobi says.
But meaning.... I think is purely subjective, and as I stated earlier doesn't really have any bearing or impact on life. |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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| Edited by - Dude on 06/02/2004 23:37:38 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2004 : 17:57:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
Everyone seems to want to have a purpose, a meaning in life. They want a way to help everyone out, such as finding a new medicines or just helping a neighbor out with a problem. Could this be instinctive instead of a learned behavior? It seems as if it would increase the survival rate of the species, each individual helping each other out. Evolution at work? Or not? What do you think?
We are a social animal, as are most primates. This sort of behavior can be readly seen in a troop of baboons; a pride of lions; a pack of wolves; a colony of vampire bats, and so forth. I'm not sure if you can call it evolution in the biological sense, but we have recieved the gift of cooporation within our group (like baboons et al., we will readly attack another group of our species from another territory). Because we/they cooporate, we/they have a better chance of evolutionary succcess. Until, that is, the Big One hits, at which time all finally become equal. 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2004 : 19:02:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
"Because we/they cooporate, we/they have a better chance of evolutionary succcess."
So it has a better chance to survive, so it has better odds with natural selection. How is this not through evolution?
The key is 'biological' evolution as opposed to 'social' evolution. While the two might support one another, I don't think that they are the same thing. For example, not all primates have social societies, Gibbons and orangutans for example. And they have done quite well until recently when habitat loss and hunting decimated their numbers. Other priimates are in the same fix, including social ones such as chimps and gorrilas.
Evolution selects the form of the animal by adapting it to it's niche in the enviorment; the animal selects it's society to it's own advantage in exploiting that niche.
Edited 'cause I've had a copule.  |
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 06/02/2004 19:06:47 |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2004 : 12:34:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
quote:
I'm pretty sure there's no meaning or purpose to anything.
Perhaps we should seperate the words meaning and purpose.
I think they are two different concepts and it would be beter to examine them independent of each other.
The purpose of life may well be as chaloobi says.
But meaning.... I think is purely subjective, and as I stated earlier doesn't really have any bearing or impact on life.
You're right. Technically you can give your own life meaning if you want. But is there 'objective' meaning to life? Can there be objective meaning to life??? |
-Chaloobi
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coberst
Skeptic Friend
182 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2004 : 13:01:53 [Permalink]
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| The scientific method is to imagine a hypothesis and then check that against empirical tests. If the hypothesis is not proven to be false it can then be tested again and again. If it is never proven false by empirical evidence it remains acceptable by science. Meaning can be imagined and like the hypothesis tested against empirical evidence. The rational person can accept this meaning when so varified. The meaning discovered is subjective but very capable of being something for which that person would be willing to die. Example love of country. |
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