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astropin
SFN Regular
USA
970 Posts |
 Posted - 07/20/2004 : 09:54:49
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“I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies” – ARG (2004)
Does it step on anyone else's toes?
I said it while having a debate with my Dad on Religion.
Adam
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2004 : 15:01:21 [Permalink]
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| Thanks for the quotes. Someone, in another discussion today talked about the cold truth. The idea is that the false hope of afterlife is a better thing for some people than the cold truth of death. "Cold" is a negative concept. Leave off the word "cold" and what do you have? Why is false better than real? It's not. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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astropin
SFN Regular
USA
970 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2004 : 09:43:14 [Permalink]
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| Well...cold is a negative concept and that's just it, most people appear to be to weak to accept the harsh reality that "is" our existence. I have no delusions about where I will end up..."all we are is dust in the wind", but that does not mean I walk around depressed all the time. I'm actually a very optimistic and generaly very happy person who enjoys life. I don't think cold should be left out. I think the general population needs to grow a pair and face reality head on. What could be sadder than false hope? Plus I think George Bernard Shaw had it wrong. I don't find "belivers" to be any happier....just delusional. |
I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.
You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.
Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.
Infinitus est numerus stultorum |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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dominic_dice
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
53 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2004 : 12:14:28 [Permalink]
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| Reminds me of the MAtrix thing- would you choose to live in the crappy reality, or live in the lie that is the Matrix... |
"Are you THE dominic_dice"
"No, a dominic_dice. I come in six packs now" |
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dominic_dice
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
53 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2004 : 12:16:48 [Permalink]
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| Reminds me of the MAtrix thing- would you choose to live in the crappy reality, or live in the lie that is the Matrix... |
"Are you THE dominic_dice"
"No, a dominic_dice. I come in six packs now" |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2004 : 13:18:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
I have no delusions about where I will end up..."all we are is dust in the wind"
Prove it!
hehe.... seriously, any statements made about the presence OR abscence of an afterlife are questionable at best. The only thing we can say, and still be inside the realm of reason and rationality, is "there is no evidence to support <insert claim here>".
Those who seriously make claims to the presence or abscence of life after death both assume/claim knowledge that is not verifiable. Such claims are called gratuitous assertions. As such, they can be gratuitously ignored or dismissed.
Remember, lack of evidence proves nothing except that you lack evidence. |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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psandoval
New Member
1 Post |
Posted - 07/21/2004 : 16:17:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Thanks for the quotes. Someone, in another discussion today talked about the cold truth. The idea is that the false hope of afterlife is a better thing for some people than the cold truth of death. "Cold" is a negative concept. Leave off the word "cold" and what do you have? Why is false better than real? It's not.
Reality isn't easy to face when it's the sort of reality that twists your viscera into a figurative knot. Many people have to work through various stages of denial, acceptance, action (or inaction), repetitively, before they can deal with 'cold truth'. If, for example, the 'cold truth' is likely to make a person more than a little bit insane, it might be better for them to approach the 'cold truth' more carefully. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2004 : 16:36:57 [Permalink]
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Reality doesn't make people insane. It's their interpretation of reality that does.
That's easy for me to say, I understand.
I think it's pretty safe to say that it's a good bet that once you take the big dirt nap, that's all there is. Maybe not 100%, but close enough for gummint work.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2004 : 17:48:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
Dude, I think you might be forgetting about Occum's Razor. You have choice A and B, both conflicting each other, which one seems more likely? That your mind (soul, spirit? we don't even have evidence that those exist) is transported to some place where it is able to live without your body? Or that you mind goes when your body goes? I would have to say that the 2nd seems more rational.
My point is, that you cannot use lack of evidence for one possibility as proof for another.
What proof can you offer that the mind is extinguished when the body dies?
What proof can you offer that the mind exists independent of the body and continues on after death?
Those are the way the problem should be approached,not:
There is no proof that the mind continues to exist after the death of the body, therefore it does not.
That's bad logic.
Currently, to my knowledge, there is no evidence (repeatable, verifiable evidence) that validates any conclusion concerning the fate of the mind/soul(or whatever you want to call it) after the death of the body.
Any conclusions drawn in this matter need to be subjected to serious examination, and need to be supported by evidence that can be independently verified. |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2004 : 20:55:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Occams Razor is only supposed to be used in situations where two claims exist, both with equal evidence. Such as one like this.
Its its not to be taken as evidence, just what is more likely.
The razor is applied when you have two equally plausible explanations for some observed phenomenon. You eliminate the more complicated explanation. Your use of this here is a misuse, as there is exactly ZERO evidence to support any claim that can be made concerning the fate of the mind and/or soul after the death of the body.
There is ONLY speculation.
Once again, lack of evidence for one option is NOT evidence for a second option.
Let me make this point one more time.....
Lack of evidence for one option IS NOT evidence for a second option.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2004 : 21:25:35 [Permalink]
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What I'm saying is obviously not being understood by you Ricky.
(which is probaly because I'm not saying it well)
Your dragon argument differs fundamentally from the topic we are talking about.
It's not even a subtle difference.
We agree that we posess a quality called conciousness, yes? (name it what you like, mind/soul/ect..)
What we are discussing is the fate of your conciousness when you die. Does it extinguish? Or does it continue to exist outside the body? Or some third explanation, like the Hindu "atman is brahman"?
There is a distinct LACK of evidence to support any of those claims, this lack of evidence for explanation A is NOT proof that explanation B is then correct. Occam's razor in no way applies to this situation, because all the explanations are pure speculation.
We are NOT talking about explanations for observed phenomenon, which is what Occam's razor is intended for.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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| Edited by - Dude on 07/21/2004 21:34:35 |
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