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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
 Posted - 07/22/2004 : 06:42:17
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I've often wondered why there was no attempt to airlift people off the roof of either of the towers. Anybody know anything about that? Considering that the buildings were burning in the mid levels and fires burn upward, it seems that's just about the only way anybody was going to be saved who was trapped above the fires. I'd be surprised if nobody considered those obvious facts. So why weren't there helicopters plucking people off the roof? Was it too windy or too smokey for helicopters to land? Did they just not get around to lining up the resources to do that before the buildings fell?
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-Chaloobi
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2004 : 09:45:10 [Permalink]
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| I agree with Ricky on this. Due to the heat it might have been very hard to do this. Not only because of flying the helicopters themselves, but maybe rescuing people even if they were able to fly helicopters over there might have been impossible. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2004 : 10:06:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by chaloobi
I've often wondered why there was no attempt to airlift people off the roof of either of the towers. Anybody know anything about that? Considering that the buildings were burning in the mid levels and fires burn upward, it seems that's just about the only way anybody was going to be saved who was trapped above the fires. I'd be surprised if nobody considered those obvious facts. So why weren't there helicopters plucking people off the roof? Was it too windy or too smokey for helicopters to land? Did they just not get around to lining up the resources to do that before the buildings fell?
Reaching way back into obscure references, I recall a documentary on high rise fires and rescue efforts on NOVA. Someone had asked the question about a helicopter rescue. The response was with very hot fires, the heat produces multiple tightly rotating vortexes which impede helicopter flight to the point that a rescue using them from the top floor was likely to down the aircraft and kill those waiting to be rescued.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2004 : 10:33:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
Maybe this should go under the Conspiracy Theories folder?
Don't sudden changes in temperature really affect how the helicopter flies? I would imagine it being difficult flying a helicopter over a raging inferno, and there was enough heat in the crash to melt the steel. It would probably just result in more deaths.
I'm not insinuating there was a conspiracy to let people die. I'm just curious why they didn't attempt that kind of rescue. I'm certain there's good reason for it. |
-Chaloobi
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2004 : 10:36:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
quote:
Originally posted by chaloobi
I've often wondered why there was no attempt to airlift people off the roof of either of the towers. Anybody know anything about that? Considering that the buildings were burning in the mid levels and fires burn upward, it seems that's just about the only way anybody was going to be saved who was trapped above the fires. I'd be surprised if nobody considered those obvious facts. So why weren't there helicopters plucking people off the roof? Was it too windy or too smokey for helicopters to land? Did they just not get around to lining up the resources to do that before the buildings fell?
Reaching way back into obscure references, I recall a documentary on high rise fires and rescue efforts on NOVA. Someone had asked the question about a helicopter rescue. The response was with very hot fires, the heat produces multiple tightly rotating vortexes which impede helicopter flight to the point that a rescue using them from the top floor was likely to down the aircraft and kill those waiting to be rescued.
This makes sense - the heat would be creating a strong updraft which would cause all kinds of air movement in the vicinity of the buildings which translates to unpredictable high winds. |
-Chaloobi
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2004 : 11:07:33 [Permalink]
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Indeed, there's a good reason that no helicopter rescues happened:Hovering over the scene [of the WTC bombing] in 1993, NYPD officer/pilot Greg Semendinger spotted the frantic Trade Center workers, lowered two men to the rooftop to remove antenna obstructions, and then proceeded to shuttle 28 people to safety. Semendinger loaded them into the Bell 412 and whisked them to safety at the base of the tower.
But on the morning of September 11, a different scene lay below Semendinger's helicopter. Through gaps in the thick smoke erupting from the ruptured tower, Semendinger saw no one on the roof. The reason why was brutally obvious: the doors leading to the roof were locked.
No Way Out
These doors were locked by order of the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey (PANYNJ), owner of the Trade Center. They were locked in part because of concerns about suicides, daredevil stunts and possible theft or vandalism of the millions of dollars worth of broadcasting equipment on the roof. Locking the doors also effectively barred any possibility of a rooftop rescue.
Authorization and the means to unlock those heavy steel doors came from a security center located on the 22nd floor. But the security center wasn't able to help. Falling debris knocked it out almost as soon as the first airliner hit the tower.
- Rescue Squabble Revives NYC Police, Fire Rivalry The article is pretty interesting, overall. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2004 : 12:05:27 [Permalink]
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Wow. That's pretty scandalous. I haven't heard anything at all like it before.
EDIT: I'd be pretty pissed off if I got a cell phone call from a loved one saying they were heading for the roof and then to find out they never got the chance to be rescued because somebody thought it was a good idea to lock the roof doors.
On the other hand, I wonder about the accuracy of this article. Back in the early '90s I visited NYC and did the tourist thing at the WTC. I don't know which tower I was in (it was the one without the giant antenna), but I went all the way to the top floor - which had a gift shop and a cafeteria and was circled by floor to ceiling windows you could walk right up to. There was also a a stairway up to a roof-top observation deck. At the time they were letting people up there - it was a raised platform above all the roof-top equipment with a fence around it so you weren't tempted to try and jump off the building. It was windy as hell on top and the view was spectacular. I wonder if there were any tourists at the top of the building when it got hit?
EDIT 2: Come to think of it, I'm sure I have pictures from the top of the building. Interesting.... I'll have to try and find them. |
-Chaloobi
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| Edited by - chaloobi on 07/22/2004 12:21:07 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2004 : 20:45:57 [Permalink]
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Well, Loobie, I know I'm going to regret this - and will probably be thought of as a callous bastard for it - but I can understand the problem facing PANYNJ, and their solution.
If we take the article at face value, and assume there was a button on the 22nd floor which unlocked the roof doors (and probably a phone next to those doors), the idea of the link between the two places getting subjected to fire and/or accident was probably considered and properly dealt with. But fire codes don't require buildings to be indestructible, or even to perform flawlessly in the event of a yet-to-be-designed big plane hitting them square on.
Assume there was a hard-wired connection between the lock and the 22nd floor. The cable used was probably highly-rated, and it was probably in a conduit which would mean survival of the wires for so-many hours in a fire of so-many degrees. The designers of the system - pressured by fiscal and liability concerns - shouldn't be faulted too much when a 757 engine (or the entire plane) rips through the line. I mean, if you're going to place the blame on someone, point the finger at the vandals, jumpers and thieves who prompted the need for the locks in the first place.
This page on the '93 bombing has some good photos of the rooftops. And it seems obvious that at this point in time, the south tower (with observation deck) is completely hidden by smoke, so even if those doors had been unlocked, there's no way a rescue could have been performed. And few people in that tower would have already been heading toward the observation deck when the second plane hit their building, anyway. It was the people in the north tower, the one which got hit first, and the one without the observation deck, who could have benefitted from an unlocked roof door.
By the way, this article about "Tourist Guy" claims that the observation deck wasn't open that early in the morning.
What I find completely unjustifiable is what I heard on CNN this morning. They played a message from someone's answering machine. A guy in the south tower calling his mom, letting her know about the first plane to hit. He wondered if his firm was going to close for the day. Had it been me, I wouldn't have cared. I would have been out of the building as fast as possible. The "firm" could dock my freakin' pay. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2004 : 07:26:43 [Permalink]
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Did the guy on the phone die? He stayed put and got caught when the second plane hit?
I'd like to think I'd have bailed out too, but you never know. It's that hindsight thing. It stands to reason that most of the people in the second tower didn't know it was an airplane that hit the first. It's also likely they didn't suspect it was terrorists who were behind it. When I first heard a plane hit the WTC I assumed it was an accident. When I heard a second plane hit, I KNEW it was no accident. But for the folks in the second tower, it was too late by then.
Would you really have left? Even when the security guy on the loud speaker is telling you to return to your office, that everything was fine? If you had some project you had to get done ASAP, would you have still left? I'd like to think I would have, but I really don't know. It totally would depend on whatever it was I needed to get done that day. On the other hand, anyone who was in the tower for the '93 bombing probably got out right away, just because of their prior experience. |
-Chaloobi
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