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Wulfstan
New Member
USA
42 Posts |
 Posted - 08/11/2004 : 05:46:35 [Permalink]
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Kil, going from the article, Dingfelder sounds a bit too wishy-washy to be very reliable; it is very hard to believe that he thought it would be "no big deal." These things have been happening all over the country in the last year or two and have garnered much attention. He may be worried about his job, but when you ask someone from an organization whose mission is separation of church and state, it's beyond naive to think it would be "no big deal." But that's speculation...After thinking about it more, it might have been interesting to see what would have happened if Harvey only talked about the paragraph you cited, however, I don't think it would have made a difference, because:
quote:
Even before Harvey began to speak, White was pushing to cancel the invocation. These are sacred moments that refer to a supreme being, White said, and this speaker is an atheist.
Nah, I don't think it would have made any difference. They didn't like him because he is an atheist and from an organization that wants to separate church and state. Their behavior before he spoke indicates to me that if he said "boo" they would have walked out. The prior media attention no doubt hurt. Personally speaking, if it had been me, I would have done what you thought Harvey should have done, but that's just how I approach these matters. But Harvey wasn't out of line, because:
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Usually, clergy members deliver the invocation. But poets, civic leaders and ordinary citizens have been invited to speak, too. Some are nondenominational; others mix politics with prayer. Some invoke Jesus, others are more meditative.
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Let me ask you Wulfstan, Gorgo and beskeptigal a question. If a city council had an official policy of allowing invocations by theists and non theists alike, would that still violate the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment? Or would the violation occur just on the days the invocation was done by a theist? If they had a policy that did not advocate one point of view over and to the exclusion of another, would these invocations still be problematic? That they wouldn't be was and probably still is the position that Dingfelder held when he invited an atheist to do the invocation.
This brings up a very good point, because many atheist organizations are not looking for equal time, they want all or any religion booted out of government venues. The "equal time" seems to be a backdoor approach to me, by saying, "Well, if you're going to allow religion then you should allow all "religions," except that atheism is NOT a religion, as much as people have tried to argue with me that it is. Personally, I don't want equal time, I want it out altogether; I don't want to hear an invocation to the Earth Mother anymore than God or Allah or Buddha.
The simple sentence: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;" doesn't make matters easier.
If they allow all people to speak whatever they want and invoke a variety of Gods or gods or no gods at all, they are still promoting religion in government, whether on some days or not. Are these city council invocations law, something written down they must do, or just customary? The equal time approach causes more problems then it solves, which I why I say remove all religion from government, state or federal, and let those people who want to pray or invoke God get together before the meetings, if they are so inclined. Obviously these people aren't going to stand for the Wiccan or Satan worshipper or what have you, so....
No matter how you slice it, this is the problem. Over 10 million people in this country are atheists, agnostics or the like. There may be even more:
quote:
"We have never had people of an atheist group represent Americans," White said. "And I don't think it is appropriate in this setting."
White's motion to cancel the invocation failed 2-4, supported only by him and Alvarez. She called White "very brave" for making the effort.
"I just can't sit here and listen to someone that does not believe in a supreme being," she said.
Ferlita voted to allow the invocation go on, but also walked out. "I think this is sending us in the wrong direction," Ferlita said.
Kil, would you mind answering your own question posed to me, Bestsketigal and Gorgo? I'd like to hear more of your thoughts on this, since you are, "an old political activist and as a very active skeptic..." 
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2004 : 06:31:24 [Permalink]
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The topic of what would I do is really another matter, yes. I don't know what I'd do. Probably nothing, as I don't even know any other atheists in this area and I sure ain't going it alone.
So, whatever is done I find it hard to criticize. At least they have the guts to do something, and hopefully if they do it wrong, we'll all learn from it.
Again, Kil, you make an extremely good point. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2004 : 08:18:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Wulfstan:
Kil, would you mind answering your own question posed to me, Bestsketigal and Gorgo? I'd like to hear more of your thoughts on this..
I will get to this, maybe later today, I dunno. I didn't want you to think I was ignoring this. I need to find the time. To some extent anyway, I do believe I have answered the question by presenting my take on the whole affair. Perhaps I was not very clear. I try...
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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ktesibios
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2004 : 16:46:07 [Permalink]
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I can't quite see the need for any invocation at all. What does it really accomplish except to say "look at what important people we are"?
There are surely better ways to delay that awful moment when you actually have to get to work.
Reading SFN, f'rinstance.  |
"The Republican agenda is to turn the United States into a third-world shithole." -P.Z.Myers |
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Wulfstan
New Member
USA
42 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2004 : 05:19:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
quote:
Wulfstan:
Kil, would you mind answering your own question posed to me, Bestsketigal and Gorgo? I'd like to hear more of your thoughts on this..
I will get to this, maybe later today, I dunno. I didn't want you to think I was ignoring this. I need to find the time. To some extent anyway, I do believe I have answered the question by presenting my take on the whole affair. Perhaps I was not very clear. I try...
I think I was looking more for your opinion on the all or nothing aspect of these invocations. Thanks for letting us know you're busy.
BTW, we've had to deal with this in my city. The arguments are similar:
The Bible display is a no-go. It didn't pass the "Lemon test."
Bible display case in downtown Houston
One person wrote to the paper:
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Bible debate still not settled / Judicial activism running amok
U.S. District Judge Sim Lake's ruling that the monument outside of the Harris County Civil Courts Building must be removed was disappointing. The First Amendment to the Constitution clearly states that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion . . . " This monument was not installed by Congress, was not mandated by any law nor establishes any national religion. This is just another example of judicial activism run amok.
Houston Chronicle Archives 8/12/04(Those archives won't be accessible to non-subscribers)
Another person wrote:
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Bible debate still not settled / Judge's decision was correct
THE decision about removing the Bible-containing monument in front of the Harris County Civil Courts building was the correct one. Although those opposed to the removal have argued that the monument does not promote one religion over another, I doubt any other church would have been allowed to set up its own literature-containing monument next to it. If the monument's proponents had stood up in court for other faiths to have the same rights, their argument might have been a bit more believable.
I always find this argument to be amusing, and quite frankly dumb:
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"God told me to come up here and make a voice," she said. "Hey, I've come to say enough is enough. When I heard that the county will have to pay $40,000, I got grievance — it bothered me."
She rifled through her purse and pulled out a $10 bill. "It clearly states, 'The United States of America, In God We Trust,' " she said.
See:
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/metropolitan/2731678
Just more fodder. Apparently, others are ticked off that Harris County will waste more money appealing this case when we have so many other problems. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2004 : 01:10:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ktesibios
I can't quite see the need for any invocation at all. What does it really accomplish except to say "look at what important people we are"?
There are surely better ways to delay that awful moment when you actually have to get to work.
Reading SFN, f'rinstance.
I think most of us agree with this. So how do we get prayer out of the congressional sessions as well? |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2004 : 21:48:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Wulfstan:
I think I was looking more for your opinion on the all or nothing aspect of these invocations.
I do not believe it would be a violation of the establishment clause if these invocations could be made without advocating one belief over another. Having said that, I am not unaware of the problems involved in making such equality happen. In fact, it is probably impossible as long as these invocations exist. To bad...
What I see in this particular case is a council member who understands that government is supposed to represent all the people. With that in mind, he invited an atheist to do an invocation. Was he naive in thinking that his fellow board members would be tolerant? Probably. Was he right inviting an atheist? You bet! It was the reaction of White and the other members who walked out that spotlighted their embrace of a status que that demands the intolerance inherent with their version of what invocations are and should always be.
I'll say again that if Harvey had been cool, those council members (who represent the real problem) would have looked that much worse for walking out on him. He might have even earned the opportunity to have them walk out on him again. Who knows? More press? More intolerance under the spotlight maybe?
If, on the other hand, Harvey is against all these kinds of invocations, no matter by whom, maybe he should have declined the offer to give one...
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2004 : 02:55:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
If, on the other hand, Harvey is against all these kinds of invocations, no matter by whom, maybe he should have declined the offer to give one...
Egad, if you're against it, you want to say so, but if you say so then you aren't against it. |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 08/16/2004 02:57:48 |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2004 : 05:47:40 [Permalink]
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What a bunch of crybabies on that council. Am I the only one who thinks walking out was babyish? Further, do they have any sense of fairness?
Non-Christians are supposed to sit quietly and tolerantly while God Bless America (I hate that song) is sung at public events, public figures thank da Lord for their good fortune, prayers are offered at public events, etc. (And perhaps, really, we SHOULD tolerate some of this.) But Christians of this ilk can't seem to return the favor and sit quietly while an atheist speaks? |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2004 : 07:39:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
Am I the only one who thinks walking out was babyish?
Nope. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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