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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26014 Posts

Posted - 09/30/2004 :  19:31:07  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
Please, let's just have one.

I'm wondering how Bush is going to live down one comment. When talking about the leaders of the 29 other countries in the coalition, he said "I know how these people think." Talk about denigrating your allies. Sheesh.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9680 Posts

Posted - 09/30/2004 :  19:54:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
Karry got lots of valid points, my hope is that enough watchers are smart enough to realize that he was right and Bush was wrong.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
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"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist

USA
4954 Posts

Posted - 09/30/2004 :  19:56:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cuneiformist a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.

Please, let's just have one.

I'm wondering how Bush is going to live down one comment. When talking about the leaders of the 29 other countries in the coalition, he said "I know how these people think." Talk about denigrating your allies. Sheesh.



Interesting debate. Sadly, listening now to commentary finds discussion of how they "looked" or sounded. Very little about the actual facts discussed. Of course 10 minutes or so is not enough time to check everything. Still, I'd rather hear that than about how people looked. *Sigh*
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@tomic
Administrator

USA
4607 Posts

Posted - 09/30/2004 :  20:46:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit @tomic's Homepage Send @tomic a Private Message
quote:
Interesting debate. Sadly, listening now to commentary finds discussion of how they "looked" or sounded. Very little about the actual facts discussed. Of course 10 minutes or so is not enough time to check everything. Still, I'd rather hear that than about how people looked. *Sigh*

The media discusses how candidates "look" or "sound" because that's all most Americans respond to besides terrorists bad, taxes bad, America good, family good, the state...is good, too. God bless Big Brother and the hell of a job he's doing against the bad guys. I know that sounds cynical but if you caught the news story the other day comparing the education levels of Daily Show viewers vs O'Reilly viewers you might have an idea of how bad it is. Why bother pointing out facts to people that tune in to only Bill O'Reilly for news commentary. It seems that most voters don't do much research on matters that effect their lives. Research takes time and with so many poor, single parents out there working two jobs just to feed their kids how much time do you think they have to examine the voting records of their congressperson or take a close look at the options for county judge positions.

The press knows who they are talking to all right. People form decisions very quickly on visuals and this is what they are going to try and spin. We all know the basics of what the candidates are for or against. But who had the best haircut? Who might you like to have a beer with even if they had just signed a paper legalizing genocide? These are the important questions to most people.

@

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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 09/30/2004 :  20:51:28   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by @tomic
Who might you like to have a beer with even if they had just signed a paper legalizing genocide? These are the important questions to most people.


Thus explaining Kerry's recent photo op sipping a brew in a small town bar.

Being at work, I missed the debate. Who were the talking heads saying came off the best? Who "won" the debate according to the analysists you've all seen?


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 09/30/2004 :  20:57:29   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
The hounds are already on the loose.... and the republicans are working hard on damage control.

One of the very few republicans I had any remaining respect for earned himself the title of "massive douche bag" tonight with his post debate comments on FOX and on The Daily Show.

Rudolph Giulaini. I'm sure he'll be running all the networks tonight pissing on Kerry.

He was telling outright lies in both places I saw him tonight, deliberately misquoting Kerry from the debate and deliberately misrepresenting what the man said. Useless bastard. They must have promised him Powell's position if W gets elected.

Bottom line, Kerry kicked W's ass. By tomorrow morining the republican spin machine will have made it seem as though Kerry flipped anf flopped his way through the entire debate, and they'll explain away W's 15second pauses as him being "stunned" by what he heard come out of Kerry's mouth....

Reality is pliable material in the hands of these people, and the general population doesn't give a shit.

And yeah.... the media is more concerned over sighs and sweating.

Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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NubiWan
Skeptic Friend

USA
424 Posts

Posted - 09/30/2004 :  21:43:08   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send NubiWan a Private Message
Dunno that Kerry kicked Dubya's ass, but can say Kerry is still alive for that poll coming up in November. Kerry remained cool and composed through out, and made some solid hits on Shrub's rap, IMO. Dubya displayed his mastery once again of English, lost his kewl several times, and mugged for the camera's. At times falling into a melt down of extended "Uhhhs," and repeating a mutter of "Mixed signals," over and over...
Both the canidates along with the networks, abandoned the 'mutual-photo-op' rules within the first couple of talking-point issues, so we got to see more of their real personalities, than they had intended, think so. Welp, don't forget Gore won the "debates," too, still think ya'ld have to say Kerry got the better of it, tonight.

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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 09/30/2004 :  22:08:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
That's cool. I listened to the BBC on the ride home and their correspondent said that most viewers would probably score the debate "a tie," with neither candidate really veering too far from previous talking points.

But on MSN's home page, a voter poll lists a 70%/30% result in favor of Kerry having fared better in the debate (with 589,310 responses). Now, I have noticed that most of the MSN polls tend to always have Kerry slightly ahead in most cases--not in reflection of national poll results--so take that with a grain of salt.

Also, from what sound bites I heard, Kerry did sound composed and eloquent. It was good to finally hear him speak when he wasn't bellowing over cheering crowd noise.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 09/30/2004 22:11:32
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9680 Posts

Posted - 09/30/2004 :  23:40:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
With regards to content, and as an outside observer I'd say that Kerry thrashed Bush. Call me cynical, but when it comes to people who don't even know how many states there are in the US, I don't have much hope.

It is with both excited interest and terror I look forward to the next debate. I don't know how it is in other countries, but here in Sweden we could see the debate live on two channels. TV4 didn't have translators, subtitles or anything that might distract the viewer from the debate. Maybe the state television will do a rerun with subs.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
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gezzam
SFN Regular

Australia
751 Posts

Posted - 09/30/2004 :  23:50:45   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit gezzam's Homepage Send gezzam a Private Message
Only saw a little bit on the net, will watch the replay when I get home. Bush did look a little stunned at times, but judging by your polls, I think most Americans seem to believe that looking stupid and constantly lying a good thing.

I hope for all our sake Kerry wins....he may be Bush Lite, but christ we have to get those Republicans outta office.

You know things are bad in the US when I am more worried about who wins your election than who wins our election in a couple of weeks.

quote:
I know that sounds cynical but if you caught the news story the other day comparing the education levels of Daily Show viewers vs O'Reilly viewers you might have an idea of how bad it is.


That was quite good, seems like the "stoned slackers" are more aware of politics than the O'Reilly watchers. The people that watch O'Reilly just want to have their beliefs confirmed.

Honestly, I think good political satire flies straight over the head of those than watch Fox News and read Matt Drudge.

Just can't wait to see Al Franken's look at the debate on Air America. "Fair and Balanced?????".....I think not.... but it will be amusing.

Mistakes are a part of being human. Appreciate your mistakes for what they are: precious life lessons that can only be learned the hard way. Unless it's a fatal mistake, which, at least, others can learn from.

Al Franken
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Starman
SFN Regular

Sweden
1613 Posts

Posted - 10/01/2004 :  01:53:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Starman a Private Message
Kerrys web page claims a decisive victory. (Surprise)

The Bush re-election site tries to find as many Kerry flip-flops as possible (Another surprise)

"Tonight, President George W. Bush stood in stark contrast to a vacillating Senator John Kerry. President Bush showed Americans a detailed path forward in the War on Terror, a plan that will ensure that America fights the enemy in Iraq and Afghanistan not in America's cities. People saw for themselves tonight where John Kerry would lead our military, our allies and the world in the War on Terror down a bumpy road paved with indecision and cynicism."
-- Bush-Cheney '04 Campaign Chairman Governor Marc Racicot

"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 10/01/2004 :  02:42:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
I had to go out, dammit, and only caught the tag end of it, perhaps 20 minutes or so. As debates go, I was not impressed. Kerry was smooth and articulate as expected; Bush could barely articulate his name, also as expected. As to content, the little I caught, neither came up with anything I hadn't already heard.

If the rest of the debate was like what I saw, Kerry used Bush to scrape the dogshit off his shoe, probably giving Bush the pity vote. I'll read the transcript and more about it today.

One thing that did grab my attention was Bush's closing statment. Prior to that he seemed to just fumble along. When he began the statment, it was almost as if he shifted gears and smoothed out a little. But again, little content.

Thus far, disappointing.



"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 10/01/2004 :  04:32:04   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
I think this reminds us that the only reason Bush was "elected" was the company he keeps. For some reason, people respected Cheney, Powell, and Daddy.

The Democrats could have put a German Shepherd up there that looked smarter and more honest than our criminal-in-chief.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26014 Posts

Posted - 10/01/2004 :  07:00:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
filthy, the closing statements were the one part of the debate which could be completely scripted beforehand. Both Bush and Kerry suddenly shifted gears then, and recited whatever memorized speech they'd prepared.

The one thing that really got to me was the fact that Bush often sounded like a stuck record, repeating anti-Kerry slogans over and over. Kerry, while delivering the same message repeatedly, at least had the smarts to use different words each time, mostly.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 10/01/2004 :  07:14:50   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.

filthy, the closing statements were the one part of the debate which could be completely scripted beforehand. Both Bush and Kerry suddenly shifted gears then, and recited whatever memorized speech they'd prepared.

The one thing that really got to me was the fact that Bush often sounded like a stuck record, repeating anti-Kerry slogans over and over. Kerry, while delivering the same message repeatedly, at least had the smarts to use different words each time, mostly.

I understand. But with Bush, you could almost hear the gears scrape.

Another point I picked up on was when Bush said, almost in passing and rushing to get it out, that the Army would remain volenteer.

You had to be paying attention or you'd have missed it.

Looking forward to the next one and if someone calls me for another snake removal, they'll have to just live with it for a while.


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 10/01/2004 :  07:15:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert

quote:
Originally posted by @tomic
Who might you like to have a beer with even if they had just signed a paper legalizing genocide? These are the important questions to most people.


Thus explaining Kerry's recent photo op sipping a brew in a small town bar.

Being at work, I missed the debate. Who were the talking heads saying came off the best? Who "won" the debate according to the analysists you've all seen?





According to the analysts, Kerry won.

According to me based on style and watching the debates, Kerry won.

Bush seemed to do OK for the first 30 minutes. He then became impatient and unglued, resulting in him violating the terms of the debate contract several times, after the moderators questions focused on Iraq and the exit strategy.

One of the better quotes of the night was Kerry's about how Bush 41 wrote that he didn't go into Iraq because there was no exit strategy.

Bush claimed that Kerry was denegrating allied forces in Iraq when the thrust was that the were activated by the government improperly. Kerry even got a dig in at Haliburton.

MSNBC showed the reaction shots that weren't supposed to be according to the contract. Too bad the networks weren't signatories to the contract. Bush managed to suppress for an hour that damned smirk that you just want to slap off his face.

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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