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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
 Posted - 11/09/2004 : 00:21:50
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quote:
God gave the victory, while His children voted "God" with their ballot-box decisions. The Lord did it! He deserves the praise and honor!
For those reading this who think I#8217;m a raving lunatic, please know that I understand, and hold no grudge. You can#8217;t possibly understand what you think of as irrationality, even madness.
But, consider this: Can you understand the way things involving this election turned out? Can you explain the swift about-face of the exit polls --from 10 -20 percent reversal, first being in the challenger#8217;s favor, changing, then, to the President#8217;s favor? Can you fathom the causes that took the challenger#8217;s forces from the heights of winning to the depths of loss within just an hour or two?
The strange turn of events is perfectly clear to those who name the name of Christ, and who wanted with all their hearts to see issues of moral import brought into line with God#8217;s Word, the Bible, for their beloved America. It was, and is, simply, a matter of God#8217;s answer to prayer #8211;millions of prayers!
If you think this is disheartening, look at what he says at the [url=http://raptureready.com/rap16.html]end[/url] of his little screed.
Now, look at how they're going to work it:
[url=http://www.thestate.com/mld/thestate/news/nation/10127751.htm]Religious Leaders Prepare Demands on the White House[/url]. Of course, this also includes the "prayer warriors"!
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>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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joedesmarais
New Member
Iraq
18 Posts |
 Posted - 11/09/2004 : 03:53:18 [Permalink]
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Those crazy religous Christians! Wanting to end abortions and protect life, teach abstinence, protect marriage, advocating for tv without filth and nudity, stopping human cloning.
Listen, I know that you're disturbed by the influence of Christianity in America, and well you should be. I just don't understand why, help educate me! |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2004 : 05:14:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by joedesmarais
Those crazy religous Christians! Wanting to end abortions and protect life, teach abstinence, protect marriage, advocating for tv without filth and nudity, stopping human cloning.
Listen, I know that you're disturbed by the influence of Christianity in America, and well you should be. I just don't understand why, help educate me!
Despite not being American:
Because I do not share their views on abortion and think this should be something decided by the mother.
Because 'banning gay marriage' is not the same as 'protecting marriage'.
Because I can turn off nudity and violence on tv if I want (not that that is relevant since I never watch tv anyway).
Because human cloning is already being stopped by non-christians and this is not a pure christian issue (same for the tv issue btw).
Because the christian right is trying to bring religious views back into secular schools which goes against everything America stands for.
Because the christian right is trying to hinder important research after AIDS, other sexual transmittable diseases and homosexuality.
Because the christian right is trying to give children and education with a distorted view on evolution theory and big bang theory.
Because the christian right is trying to establish a theocracy in stead of a democracy
Get my drift? I could go on but then I will actually have to start thinking to come up with examples, in stead of just listing them. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2004 : 05:47:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by joedesmarais
Those crazy religous Christians! Wanting to end abortions and protect life, teach abstinence, protect marriage, advocating for tv without filth and nudity, stopping human cloning.
Listen, I know that you're disturbed by the influence of Christianity in America, and well you should be. I just don't understand why, help educate me!
As for stopping human cloning, I believe you're refering to stem cell research. Why do I think that? Because I've never, ever seen anything about scientists wanting to clone humans. Maybe I'm just oblivious to that, though. It's always a possibility.
On stem cell research, I'm doing a separate thread about it in awhile. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2004 : 06:16:13 [Permalink]
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| yes they do want to clone people btw. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2004 : 06:54:14 [Permalink]
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Excellent post, Tom.
Why am I disturbed by the influence of Christianity in politics?
1. We have a separation of church and state. You can argue the minutae of this, but it was established for a reason: to preserve the religious freedom of ALL Americans, not just Christian Americans.
2. Christianity's right wing political stance is holding back the progress of the rest of America. You all--especially Catholics--are caught in a time warp. For examples, see stem cell research, women in the clergy, intolerance of homosexuality, and the fact that most of you sat on your white (mostly Southern) asses during the Civil Rights movement.
3. The Christian right has ISSUES regarding sexuality that they want to impose on the rest of us. For examples, see abortion, homosexuality, and the pervasive fear that makes them want to control and legislate the sexual expression of others.
4. The Christian right seems to have a limited understanding of science and evolution. See above regarding holding back progress.
I need to get to work but you get the idea. |
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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2004 : 07:58:16 [Permalink]
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What truly saddens me is that the Christian right (aka our present government) is trying to take control of decisions and values that should be made and instilled by the family. I'm a Democrat, and I too believe in family values - NOT government values.
When government can solve all the problems that are actually the proper responsibility of government maybe (not likely mind you) just maybe I would consider its intervention into my household. As it is, I can manage my budget and my family's values on my own, thank you very much.
Big government makes weak citizens. If you doubt me, go out and strike up conversations with a few strangers. You'll be amazed.
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Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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Maverick
Skeptic Friend
Sweden
385 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2004 : 08:56:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by joedesmarais
Those crazy religous Christians!
Yes, but as a liberal, I believe in religious freedom. What can we do? :)
quote:
Wanting to end abortions
How do you want to do this? By more sex ed in schools, and cheaper contraceptives for the youth? I agree!
quote:
and protect life,
Absolutely. And that is why the death penalty has to go.
quote:
teach abstinence,
Teach it alongside with education about sex in general of course, including contraceptives etc. I agree with that too!
quote:
protect marriage,
Well, of course it's a good thing if a marriage does not end in divorce.
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advocating for tv without filth and nudity,
I would rather have TV without shallow, stupid shows. But, then again I suppose we share "American values" such as freedom of speech. TV should not be excluded.
quote:
stopping human cloning.
If human cloning is to be stopped (except for when nature does it, because then it's obviously ok!), then it should not be because some religious guy says his religion forbids it.
quote:
Listen, I know that you're disturbed by the influence of Christianity in America, and well you should be. I just don't understand why, help educate me!
Because literal beliefs in fairy tales is something that mostly children hold? No reason to let you steer an entire civilisation of the cliff just because you think it would be wonderful to do so. |
"Life is but a momentary glimpse of the wonder of this astonishing universe, and it is sad to see so many dreaming it away on spiritual fantasy." -- Carl Sagan |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2004 : 08:56:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
Ok, so God went against a democracy to put Bush in office. Everything God does is good. Therefore, since God went against a democracy, democracy must be bad.
False conclusion dervied from an assertion = false assertion, no? Unless he is really against democracy...
God's never supported Democracy as far as I can tell. The Bible is a very top-down leadership story - I mean, did the Hebrews ever get a vote? And the Church I was raised in - Roman Catholic - was never anything like a Democracy in it's 2k year history. It's not at all a stretch, or even controversial, to say God is dismissive of Democracy.
EDIT - However, the concept of Faith does imply God favors free will, a very democratic principle. As I understand it, the reason God never shows Itself and requires us to have Faith in It is because It knows that solid proof of It's existance would make believers of us all and we would not choose God or the right way to behave for any other reason than fear. And God wants us to choose for other reasons - love, compassion, understanding, or whatever else. Thus we are stuck with Faith and divinely granted free will. This is my main argument against anti-abortion and for gay marriage, btw. The religous minded can't answer it either. If God Itself wishes us to have the free will to choose between right and wrong, how dare these activists stand up and take the authority God will not take? IMO, they are risking far greater punishment than gays and desperate pregnant women. |
-Chaloobi
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| Edited by - chaloobi on 11/09/2004 09:04:35 |
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Rubicon95
Skeptic Friend
USA
220 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2004 : 09:57:40 [Permalink]
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Good point Chaloobi.
You can no more legislate God into politics than legislate him out. If you believe that God is all-powerful, human laws are powerless to Him.
Hearing about “Christian Leaders demand…” always strikes me as odd. They are not my leader. My boss is a Jewish Carpenter.
Now my rant.
If we were Christian nation, Why do the poor go hungry, Why did we create laws to keep fellow human beings down, Why do we focus on material wealth, Why is greed good? Why don't we forgive foreign debt? Why do we still have orphanages? Why are people in the pro-life movement also pro-death penalty? Why does the poor man go to jail for his crime but the rich get acquitted?
Why do we have homeless people?
Curious to note, in Afghanistan, one of the poorest countries, no one went homeless. (This cultural practice predates the Taliban.) Yet here we are the richest nation and people/families sleep in the streets.
Odd tangent --- I was watching Papa Roach's video “Getting a way with murder”. For a brief instant, they changed the national motto from “In God we Trust” to “In Guns We Trust”. And it all made sense. We only trust the superiority of our weapons systems and economic systems not GOD.
I don't think Christianity has had a big influence. It's been corrupted in this society. Some of the tele-evangelists just make me sick by the Name-It and Claim-It theology. Majority are nothing more than modern day Pharisees.
I wish Christianity had more of REAL influence in society. Maybe we could be more compassionate to our fellow sinners rather than judgemental idiots.
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2004 : 11:22:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Rubicon95
Good point Chaloobi.
You can no more legislate God into politics than legislate him out. If you believe that God is all-powerful, human laws are powerless to Him.
Hearing about “Christian Leaders demand…” always strikes me as odd. They are not my leader. My boss is a Jewish Carpenter.
I agree. Nowhere in the New Testament does Jesus command his followers to go out and create a huge heirarchical structure to exercise political and social control. Nor does he tell them to take control of governments and make laws to force everyone to live according to His teachings. He tells his followers to spread the word of God which by its very nature will draw people in.
The Kingdom of God is people who have found their way to Jesus via the Word of God. Jesus held human political and power structures as irrelevant at best and in disdain at worst. Laws making the teachings of Jesus mandatory are contrary to the concept of Faith and should be regarded an affront to God. Those using Christianity to aquire wealth and/or political and social power are sinning gravely even if their intentions are wholely motivated by good.
quote:
If we were Christian nation, Why do the poor go hungry, Why did we create laws to keep fellow human beings down, Why do we focus on material wealth, Why is greed good? Why don't we forgive foreign debt? Why do we still have orphanages? Why are people in the pro-life movement also pro-death penalty? Why does the poor man go to jail for his crime but the rich get acquitted?
You make excellant points. Of all things, these are the first issues that should be dealt with by Christians. But if we were all truley Christians, the government structure would not have to deal with this. There would be no homeless people because you and I would be taking them in and/or giving money and effort to organizations that would take them in. If we were a true Christian nation, there would be no one in destitute poverty and the government would not have to lift a finger to make it so. But, of course, we are not.
quote:
I wish Christianity had more of REAL influence in society. Maybe we could be more compassionate to our fellow sinners rather than judgemental idiots.
This is interesting. What would a true Christian nation be like? Jesus stood for principles of egalitarianism. Some would say the new testament preaches a kind of communism - true communism, not stalinism or maoism. In a Christian nation nobody goes hungry, nobody is homeless, nobody is ostracized by the group for any reason. There is no social heirarchy. There are no laws regulating your morality because the word of God is enough. And if you haven't found your way to the word of God, you are still embraced. There is no coercion. Everyone is accepted as they are and help is always available for everyone. Does this sound anything at all like what America is today or like what Christian political activists would like it to be???
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-Chaloobi
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2004 : 18:37:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Rubicon95
If we were Christian nation, Why do the poor go hungry, Why did we create laws to keep fellow human beings down, Why do we focus on material wealth, Why is greed good? Why don't we forgive foreign debt? Why do we still have orphanages? Why are people in the pro-life movement also pro-death penalty? Why does the poor man go to jail for his crime but the rich get acquitted?
Why do we have homeless people?
Indeed these are the questions I ask myself whenever I meet a christian person who does not vote left/liberal. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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joedesmarais
New Member
Iraq
18 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2004 : 03:03:58 [Permalink]
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reading the replies to my post, I was not suprised at the responses. I was suprised however, to how similiar the feelings expressed in the below article were to those posted here. This is, again, why Republicans (and yes, christian conservatives) felt the need to rush to the polls.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6330851 |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2004 : 03:23:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Those crazy religous Christians! Wanting to end abortions and protect life, teach abstinence, protect marriage, advocating for tv without filth and nudity, stopping human cloning.
Listen, I know that you're disturbed by the influence of Christianity in America, and well you should be. I just don't understand why, help educate me!
As soon as you start trying to impose religious beliefs into government, "I get the wiff of the Taliban" - from an article I read a long time ago.
Religious people should have a say in government. But the rights of others should always trump anyone's say in government. This is something Christians can't stand; rights. They can't stand a right to choose (just to clarify, as of right now I take no stance on abortion), they can't stand a right to see porn, they can't stand a right to drink, they can't stand a right to curse.
The just don't like that people have rights and don't have to submit to God.
Edit:
Sorry, I was talking about religious extremists, not all religious people.
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Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov |
| Edited by - Ricky on 11/10/2004 03:25:15 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2004 : 05:27:01 [Permalink]
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It's going to be an interesting disaster, I think. Bush has had pretty much a free ride thus far, but now he's going to have to pay up. And being in hock to the religious right is like owing a loan shark: the vigorish is high and they're never satisfied.
I suppose he'll again go for a Constitutional Amendment defining marriage, which is almost as silly, indeed stupid, as the one involving flag-burning. I'm not sure he'll get that one, although a couple of my fundier neighbors assure me that it's a shoo-in.
We're in trouble on the scientific front, though, and not just stem cell research. This administration ignores or derides any and all science that disagrees with it's own warped viewpoints and philosophy. We are going to be left well behind the rest of the world, there. Once upon a time, scientists flocked here to study and do research. That might no longer be so.
Roe vs, Wade: that's going to be the hot one, perhaps for the next, four years. If Bush can get the appointments on the SC, he might overturn it. I'm not sure he can get those appointments, even with Specter pussing out. And if he does get them, it might turn out to be a political disaster for Republicans. Nobody likes abortion, but I've read that a large percentage support the right to choose.
I wonder what would be done if Jenna or the other one got, *ahem* 'illicetly' knocked up and can't remember who done it.
If spending and other fisical policies keep going as they are, and they will, the stench of economic necrosis will soon be very noticible.
At the moment, I don't think that we will be invading Iran or anybody else, anytime soon. The military simply lacks enough warm bodies to meet our current obligations plus Iraq, which is turning into a meat grinder. Unless, sometime along about March, sufficent time for the pathetic American attention span to have forgotten the "no draft" statments made a month or so back, a draft is instituted. The kicker here is that it takes time to build a conscripted force and I think that resistance to it will be fierce, perhaps even more so than during 'Nam.
In short, I'm not so sure the Republicans and their religious right goombahs have won much of anything beyond their own, eventual undoing.
Be careful what you wish for, eh?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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