|
|
|
tkster
Skeptic Friend
USA
193 Posts |
 Posted - 11/30/2004 : 16:03:19
|
Although I was on the IG show, only Gold Members are allowed to download it and of course I'd be violating the law if I copied it. However, what I decided to do was address the same questions brought up on my Skeptic Times Radio program. This gave me another idea if anyone has other questions outside "why did I convert," "did my political views change" or "what led me to realize agnosticism." If you have other questions, ask away so I can address these also.
take care,
tk
|
Edited by - tkster on 11/30/2004 16:03:53
|
|
|
H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
 Posted - 11/30/2004 : 16:14:58 [Permalink]
|
My question isn't so much about why you converted. I've always thought evolution to have the more convincing argument and the only theory to have facts in its favor. I can't figure out why everyone doesn't accept evolution.
My questions are, what took you so long to come around? Why did you put up walls around yourself and your beliefs? Why did you allow yourself to be deceived in the first place? It's that part of religious people's psychology that I don't get. What motivated your distrust and hatred of science?
And now that your agnostic, what do you think of creationists who are actively advocating bad science or who "lie for Jesus." What do you think of the tactics and morals of those you once believed in? What do you think their motivations are? And to what extent do you plan to counter their efforts?
I'm hoping that by listing what the obstacles were for you we might get a better handle on what it would take to remove them for others.
|
"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 11/30/2004 16:44:07 |
 |
|
|
Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
|
|
Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2004 : 01:26:22 [Permalink]
|
Why did you ever put up that website?
Why did you use a name for you site that was deliberatey misleading?
Why did you offer $$ for anyone who could "prove text-book evolution" and not provide the name of the specific text you were referring to?
Why did you see fit to construct your "challenge" around a deliberate misrepresentation of evolution that you apparently fabricated?
In a nutshell.... you lied, lied, and lied some more. Deliberately misrepresented facts, created multiple straw-men, ect... all in an effort to promote your own little version of creationism. At one point you had even promised us some examples of experimants that would be falsifiable and that supported ID!
(you did ask for questions....)
Why, after all the dishonesty and outright lies, should anyone believe what you are saying now?
|
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
|
|
|
|
Plyss
Skeptic Friend
Netherlands
231 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2004 : 12:25:13 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dude
Why, after all the dishonesty and outright lies, should anyone believe what you are saying now?
Because the ability to forgive is part of what makes us human.
Because we are all aware that "...the mind of man pursues the path of least resistance, and the conclusions arrived at by the individual depend upon the nature and structure of his mind, on his experience, on hereditary drifts and tendencies, and on the countless things that constitute the difference in minds. (Ingersol, 1889)" and we also know that our experiences and tendencies are subject to change.
But above all because it is in our nature to allow people to redeem themselves.
I would dearly love to believe that people are generally benevolent, so i do  . |
Miss Tick sniffed. 'You could say this piece of advice is pricesless', she said. 'Are you listening?'
'Yes' said Tiffany.
'Good now...If you trust in yourself.."
'Yes..?'
'..and believe in your dreams...'
'yes?'
'...and follow your star..' Miss Tick went on.
'Yes?'
'You'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy. Goodbye.' |
|
|
|
Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2004 : 16:39:00 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Why did you use a name for you site that was deliberatey misleading?
tkster said that he named the site that to make fun of the New York Times. Just like the SFN makes fun of the Psychic Friends Network.
quote:
Why did you offer $$ for anyone who could "prove text-book evolution" and not provide the name of the specific text you were referring to?
And an even better question, the offer is still up. Can I take it?
quote:
Why, after all the dishonesty and outright lies, should anyone believe what you are saying now?
For this, lets take an example. On P.M.C., Dude, if you now said that due to no evidence for or against it, we can make a conclusion on it, did you lie before? No, not at all, just changed your position.
Was tkster lying before? Yes, he even said he did. He said he was questioning Creation for 6 months, while on his forum portraying it as true. That sure fits my definition of a purposeful deception. However, as he said before, he did have other reasons for doing this.
Now I really dislike that he wasn't truthful about his position, going as far as having a screen name calling Darwin stupid. But can we judge people by their past? Can people not change?
I once believed the 10% myth. Does that make me a woo-woo now? I certainly hope not. |
Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov |
| Edited by - Ricky on 12/03/2004 16:50:42 |
|
|
|
Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2004 : 02:07:18 [Permalink]
|
quote:
On P.M.C., Dude, if you now said that due to no evidence for or against it, we can make a conclusion on it, did you lie before?
As it stands, there is no evidence, and I never said there was. What I said was that ANY claim about what happened to human consciousness was, currently, unevidenced. The conclusion, therefore, is that anyone who reaches a conclusion will have their conclusion dismissed.
In the light of new evidence, if it is ever provided, I'm sure that my position will change, as is only rational. The analogy is poor, I have never offered a million dollar prize to an impossible challenge while deliberately lying about the subject for the prize.
As far as honesty goes... it has been my experience in life that people who deliberately lie on the order of what was carried out on tk's website rarely change.
How about this. tk can take his million dollars prize money and donate it to Randi's prize, and double the reward. I mean, if he had such a prize, set aside for the person who could "prove textbook evolution", then he could easily do that. Or just offer his own prize, set his own terms, and do it in a credible fashion that clearly demonstrates that the money is real and can be won.
That would be compelling evidence for a real change in outlook.
quote:
posted by Plyss Because the ability to forgive is part of what makes us human.
How about let tk answer? He did ask for questions afterall.
|
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
|
|
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2004 : 04:55:02 [Permalink]
|
I am perfectly willing to accept tkstr at face value here, for the nonce at least. What went down over there can remain there and it's no skin off our noses, although I would hope the site undergoes some radical change when it comes back up (I seem to recall tk saying it was down).
Heh, if it were me, I'd run it as a spoof and link to here.  Might could have some fun. 
What, I wonder, has become of jimiwhasis and kev-kev, and the others?
I didn't spend a lot of time there due to the small font that I can barely decipher and still haven't figgered out how to enlarge in spite of the generous advice I've recieved.
|
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
|
| Edited by - filthy on 12/04/2004 04:58:14 |
|
|
|
the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2004 : 10:39:52 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
I am perfectly willing to accept tkstr at face value here, for the nonce at least. What went down over there can remain there and it's no skin off our noses, although I would hope the site undergoes some radical change when it comes back up (I seem to recall tk saying it was down).
As am I; a LOT of people used to be fundies in the past. We can't just go shooting down everyone because they NOW say that they've changed their minds. We'll just wait and see.
I remember Farrell Till was, at one point a preacher before he changed his mind...that's a far more "radical" change.
|
>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
| Edited by - the_ignored on 12/04/2004 10:42:01 |
|
|
|
Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2004 : 00:43:17 [Permalink]
|
Beliefs change all the time. That's not my point.
One of my favorite (now deceased) comedians used to be a brimstone and hellfire preacher! There's little doubt in my mind that old dead Sam Kinneson realized that what he was preaching was a load of crap instead of the truth.
Why I remain skeptical in this instance is the deliberate and methodical misrepresentations put forth by tk with the specific intent to decive people, done in full knowledge that the method was decietfull.
.... he still refers to Hovind as "Dr. Hovind", lending credibility to that liars fake credentials.
|
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
|
|
|
|
Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2004 : 03:13:12 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
quote:
Why did you use a name for you site that was deliberatey misleading?
tkster said that he named the site that to make fun of the New York Times. Just like the SFN makes fun of the Psychic Friends Network.
Ah, but there's a great difference.
The Skeptic Friends Network's members, the great majority of it's regulars anyway are actual skeptics.
Skeptic Times' regulars were at the most wannabees, still wet behind their ears. The only members over there I can recall right now being older than 25 is me, Kil, Peptide, and River. And though we are critical thinkers to at least some extent, we were also considered bad guys. Why else did we get banned at one point or another?
Granted, there are SFN regulars right now who are just as young, but these members has shown that they have the capacity of critical thought. And they have shown an interest in actually learning more about skepticism. You can't accuse Skeptic Times' members of that.
Skeptic Times was obviously created to mock skepticism, and ridicule actual science (and particularly evolution, which in many ways is the pinnacle of science).
Skeptic Friends Network's main mission is to actually promote skepticism.
|
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
|
|
|
tkster
Skeptic Friend
USA
193 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2004 : 12:37:45 [Permalink]
|
Okay if all goes well I'll be recording this program tomorrow. I waited over a week to get all the questions out.
The first part I'll address the same issues brought up on IG and then get to these questions and a few others. Some questions overlap, so I'll try to address them as one.
Thanks for all the questions and I'll be linking this program sometime tomorrown or early Wednesday if all goes as planned.
take care,
tk |
|
|
|
tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2004 : 08:23:42 [Permalink]
|
| I'm looking forward to it. Some of the questions posted by people here are exactly the same I have, especially the ones regarding why someone sticks to a religious position. I've got my own suspisions based on what I gathered from some of my fundamentalist friends and my father, but hearing someone who changed his position on it will be exciting. I hope you will be able to point me in a right direction in understanding these people. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
|
|
|
tkster
Skeptic Friend
USA
193 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2004 : 11:00:19 [Permalink]
|
Click here for the recording. I finally have my voice back so I was able to record it. Hopefully this will answer many people's questions.
tk |
|
|
|
Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2004 : 20:26:27 [Permalink]
|
| site will not load... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
|
|
|
tkster
Skeptic Friend
USA
193 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2004 : 20:42:13 [Permalink]
|
Hmm, but you've been having trouble anyway. I can get access. Anyone else having this problem?
tk |
|
|
 |
|
|
|
Topic Locked
