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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
 Posted - 12/22/2004 : 08:38:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
Yep. So he sends the rain that helps the farmers.
He also sends the flood that kills many, many people, good or evil alike. That sends people to the streets moaning because they've lost their houses, children and everything, all because of the flood. Isn't it?
It's so nice to speak about how you've food and clothes and health care, when you don't see it everyday, now isn't it? Everyday, thousands of children on the streets, starving. Everyday, thousands of old people on the streets, begging to have their money so they can buy food for their families. I'm pretty sure those people starving in Africa are pretty thankful to God, aren't they? Only it may not be your desert god. It's their god[s].
What about the indians? Are they going to hell, because they've never heard of your desert-borne god? They've committed many sins, haven't they? Worshipped other gods, just to name one. Who's right, then?
Wow, so many question. Start your own thread to discuss them.
Wow, Siberia's post was actually related to the OP. Deal with it. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2004 : 08:56:53 [Permalink]
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| Nice way of dodging my questions, thank-you-very-much. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2004 : 22:05:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
Nice way of dodging my questions, thank-you-very-much.
No problem. I'm not opposed to discussing them.
Let's take one issue, children starving on the streets. You are implying that God causes this starvation and that the adult population is totally blameless for this horrible situation in whatever countries it is happening. I beg to differ. Back in the days B.C. at the time of Pharoah being one of the most powerful rulers, Joseph son of Jacob (Israel) was sold into slavery by his brothers who hated him. Through events directed by God, he rose from a slave to 2nd most powerful in Egypt, specifically because he revealed to Pharoah the meaning of his troubling dream about a world-wide famine that was to happen in 7 years and last for 7 years. God used Joseph to save his own family and thousands of others from starvation, because of the wisdom Joseph had from God (he loved and trusted God). Famines and troubles happen in this world because men have corrupted themselves and rebelled against God. In spite of it God sends someone to help save many people. Now God could just wipe us all out, or He could show his goodness and help us learn from the situation. You, and some others in this thread, seem to think that we should blame God for all the troubles on earth, while the Bible teaches that we are to blame for the troubles, because we are corrupt, selfish beings who enjoy killing, stealing, and coveting stuff. Therefore, God deals with men by His goodness, at times, and by His judgment sometimes. When He is good to us, we still complain and crave more. When He deals harshly with us, we are afraid and angry, though some actually listen to Him and amend their own ways instead of commanding God to shape up. We are so blinded by our exalted view of ourselves that we can't see how corrupt we really are. All around us there is both extreme corruption and great goodness and order. Truly our world is in great conflict, yet we continue to justify evil men and condemn God. To sum it up, many men (and women), think "they rock", while God sees them as "dumb and hard in their hearts as rocks". And by this Bible verse, which is repeated in the scripture we get a clue to what part of God's job is: "He abases the proud, but gives grace to the lowly"
So, when you see a lot of people thinking they are great stuff and thinking way to highly about themselves because they are so prosperous and sucessful, you can just figure that somehow, someway, God is working, or about to work to humble those folk.
Thus, according to the scriptures, men's hardness, brought on by pride, rebellion, unthankfulness, unbelief, etc. toward God, is the direct cause for "bad things" that happen in this world. So if we fit into this category (and who doesn't at times), we are the cause that brings about horrible circumstances from God. Kinda like thieves and other criminals bring down the long arm of the law upon themselves.
I do notice in the Bible where if the Israelites feared and obeyed God during a certain period in their history, God greatly prospers and blesses them. Then, when they got fat and sassy with all their prosperity, they forgot God and He brought judgment down on them in the form of wild animals, natural disasters, famines, and war. All of these disasters were meant to cause them to turn back to God. Of course, for many, it was too late, but always their was a remnant.
*note: because many of you are atheist, let me pose a question to you. If there is no god, who is to blame for the wars, the criminal activity, the inhumanity to man that occurs on a daily basis? Also, who is to be lauded for order, the "seemingly" good laws and regulations, the properity, the roads, the conservation, the acts of charity, the anonomous gifts, the inspiring stories of courage and excellance, and so on?
Also, there being no god, then all the natural disasters are without intelligent direction or purpose and occur only by chance, therefore, is it your contention that the many displays of "natures" power, pestilence, flies, locuts, lice, boils, frogs, blood, darkness, fire and lightning, killing of all "first born" animals and humans alike on the same night, parting the Red Sea, drowning of Pharoah's army, pillars of fire, food falling on the ground every morning to feed 2 million people every day for 40 years were all mere coincidence or what? |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
| Edited by - Doomar on 12/22/2004 22:45:11 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2004 : 23:17:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
*note: because many of you are atheist, let me pose a question to you. If there is no god, who is to blame for the wars, the criminal activity, the inhumanity to man that occurs on a daily basis? Also, who is to be lauded for order, the "seemingly" good laws and regulations, the properity, the roads, the conservation, the acts of charity, the anonomous gifts, the inspiring stories of courage and excellance, and so on?
Looking for someone to "blame", as you put it, is a futile activity.
As, apparently, is trying to have a rational discourse with you.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2004 : 23:51:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
*note: because many of you are atheist, let me pose a question to you. If there is no god, who is to blame for the wars, the criminal activity, the inhumanity to man that occurs on a daily basis?
Those who commit such atrocities are to blame. Why should we look elsewhere?quote:
Also, who is to be lauded for order, the "seemingly" good laws and regulations, the properity, the roads, the conservation, the acts of charity, the anonomous gifts, the inspiring stories of courage and excellance, and so on?
Those who commit such kind acts should receive the credit. Why should we look elsewhere?quote:
Also, there being no god, then all the natural disasters are without intelligent direction or purpose and occur only by chance, therefore, is it your contention that the many displays of "natures" power, pestilence, flies, locuts, lice, boils, frogs, blood, darkness, fire and lightning, killing of all "first born" animals and humans alike on the same night, parting the Red Sea, drowning of Pharoah's army, pillars of fire, food falling on the ground every morning to feed 2 million people every day for 40 years were all mere coincidence or what?
You're kidding, right? You've got solid evidence that food fell from the sky for 40 days? You've got solid evidence that Pharoh's army was drowned? You've got solid evidence of all of the Biblical plagues? 'Cause I've got to tell you: as an atheist, I consider the Bible to be rather a poor source of information about what actually happened when those alleged "miracles" occured. After all, there's no evidence at all for a global flood, so why should the Bible be taken as an accurate history of other supposedly-divine actions? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2004 : 02:18:08 [Permalink]
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There's no evidence for the vast majority of the events described in the bible... But apparently Doomar doesn't require evidence, and that is a point we shall never pass.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2004 : 07:02:36 [Permalink]
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Was it C.S Lewis who on the death of his wife said God was a Cosmic Sadist? |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2004 : 07:35:50 [Permalink]
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Dude's reply
*note: because many of you are atheist, let me pose a question to you. If there is no god, who is to blame for the wars, the criminal activity, the inhumanity to man that occurs on a daily basis? Also, who is to be lauded for order, the "seemingly" good laws and regulations, the properity, the roads, the conservation, the acts of charity, the anonomous gifts, the inspiring stories of courage and excellance, and so on?
Looking for someone to "blame", as you put it, is a futile activity.
As, apparently, is trying to have a rational discourse with you.
On the contrary, it seems you, who are claiming the title of atheist, place great blame upon those who believe in "religion" or "god" and make much effort in placing that blame for society's ills on that bunch.
And how does your statement address who should be lauded for the good things? I see no hang up among atheists clammoring for fame and acknowledgment and money gained by achievement, do you?
How rational must I be in slicing apart the apparent hypocrisy of your statement?
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Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
| Edited by - Doomar on 12/23/2004 07:37:32 |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2004 : 07:43:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm
Was it C.S Lewis who on the death of his wife said God was a Cosmic Sadist?
To clear up this misuse of quotes, I'll post the entire quote. Then you can see if it meant what you thought it did:
C.S. Lewis said, upon the death of his wife, when comparing God to a cosmic surgeon as opposed to a cosmic sadist, "The terrible thing is that a perfectly good God {this being the notion of what Lewis was dispelling}is hardly less formidable than a cosmic sadist. The more we believe that God hurts only to heal the less we can believe that there's any use in begging for tenderness. The kinder and conscientious he is the more inexorably he will go on cutting. If he yielded to our entreaties, if he stopped before the operation was complete, all the pain up to that point would be useless. What do people mean when they say 'I am not afraid of God because He is good?' Have they not been to a dentist?"
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Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2004 : 07:48:33 [Permalink]
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[quote]Originally posted by Dude
There's no evidence for the vast majority of the events described in the bible... But apparently Doomar doesn't require evidence, and that is a point we shall never pass.
Actually there is little evidence to the contrary and vast volumes of evidence for the support. If you consider the entire nation of Israel to be but a figment of your imagination, along with their long history, vigorously supported by them and others, then, sure, there are only tidbits of support that fill thousands of volumes of books. Okay, now time for you to go study.
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Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2004 : 08:37:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
Dude's reply
*note: because many of you are atheist, let me pose a question to you. If there is no god, who is to blame for the wars, the criminal activity, the inhumanity to man that occurs on a daily basis? Also, who is to be lauded for order, the "seemingly" good laws and regulations, the properity, the roads, the conservation, the acts of charity, the anonomous gifts, the inspiring stories of courage and excellance, and so on?
Looking for someone to "blame", as you put it, is a futile activity.
As, apparently, is trying to have a rational discourse with you.
On the contrary, it seems you, who are claiming the title of atheist, place great blame upon those who believe in "religion" or "god" and make much effort in placing that blame for society's ills on that bunch.
And how does your statement address who should be lauded for the good things? I see no hang up among atheists clammoring for fame and acknowledgment and money gained by achievement, do you?
How rational must I be in slicing apart the apparent hypocrisy of your statement?
Nice misdirection. Dude says, "Looking for someone to "blame", as you put it, is a futile activity."
This tends to indicate, as is evidenced by Dave W's more direct post, that the actions of the individual is the sole responsibility of that individual. One need only look at history and see how people do things in the name of religion (really, dogma) which are evil. The point being made is that since those folks who are religious tend to give the credit for good events to God and the blame for bad events to man or the anti-God. These same individuals refer to God as omnipotent and omnipresent. Therefore, a rational extention of these points is that a God who is both omnipotent and omnipresent who does not move to stop these elements from affecting good people must then be evil or imperfect. The direct logical conflicts with the whole set of positions when taken in totality rather than seperately seem to paint a more Sweeney Toddish God rather than a Jesus like God.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2004 : 08:45:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Doomar wrote:
All the atheistic goals are selfish and self-centered. The betterment of the world or society is irrelevant to the atheist. Feeding and clothing the poor is not an atheist goal. World peace is not their agenda, but "freedom from religion".
What is your evidence to support these strawmen? And since you bring it up, how selfish and self-centered is it when your life's goal is to die and spend eternity in paradise, while billions of "unbelievers" are consigned to eternal torture? |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2004 : 09:10:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
The betterment of the world or society is irrelevant to the atheist. Feeding and clothing the poor is not an atheist goal. World peace is not their agenda, but "freedom from religion".
That is offensive. How can you speak for even one athiest, much less athiests as a whole? How dare you?
The betterment of the world and society is of more interest to athiests than anyone, because we know this is the only world we have. We are not waiting for the next. Here and now. This is it.
Please confine yourself to speaking for yourself. Do not presume to know the minds of others when it would seem you have yet to master your own. |
Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2004 : 09:11:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Doomar:
I do notice in the Bible where if the Israelites feared and obeyed God during a certain period in their history, God greatly prospers and blesses them. Then, when they got fat and sassy with all their prosperity, they forgot God and He brought judgment down on them in the form of wild animals, natural disasters, famines, and war. All of these disasters were meant to cause them to turn back to God. Of course, for many, it was too late, but always their was a remnant.
So, the idea is to fear and obey. Good things happen when we fear and obey. Fear and obey. Fear and obey… God wants robots or perhaps, slaves. While I can see how this may serve the various Christian religions, I do not see how this serves God unless he really is a most insecure being. “I can do anything but what I really want if a lot of fear and obedience. Love me or I will kick your ass.” Doesn't that pretty much sum it up? And what does that really say about free will? One could speculate on the notion that God wants us to fuck up just so he can punish us. So he made us this way. He is a vengeful God who created us so he could exercise his vengefulness. Otherwise, why would we keep doing that rather than fear and obey? Perhaps we are like a great video game to God. He just keeps zapping us knowing we are too stupid to get it. He knows that because he created the game. Fear and obey. He gave us free will so he could zap our asses…
And this Christian version of a sociopathic God is one I should love? Fear and obey? |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Paulos23
Skeptic Friend
USA
446 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2004 : 09:20:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Wendy
quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
The betterment of the world or society is irrelevant to the atheist. Feeding and clothing the poor is not an atheist goal. World peace is not their agenda, but "freedom from religion".
That is offensive. How can you speak for even one athiest, much less athiests as a whole? How dare you?
The betterment of the world and society is of more interest to athiests than anyone, because we know this is the only world we have. We are not waiting for the next. Here and now. This is it.
Please confine yourself to speaking for yourself. Do not presume to know the minds of others when it would seem you have yet to master your own.
I agree with Wendy on this. How could you say that? Christions do not have the corner on human kindness. You can be an atheist and still care for you fellow human. Caring for others doesn't take religion, it takes being kind and caring. |
You can go wrong by being too skeptical as readily as by being too trusting. -- Robert A. Heinlein
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley |
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