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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
 Posted - 12/28/2004 : 23:09:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
Something must happen in our darkened minds to comprehend the situation and recognize the enormous complexity of it. Consider, if you will, an old Texas Instrument computer w/ a cassette tape drive and a tv for a monitor; very limited capability (I owned one). It had only a small amount of RAM memory and no hard drive, you had to use your cassette recorder as the hard drive. What if I tried to plug into that limited miniscule system a formula for figuring out world weather patterns? Just the data alone would require millions of cassette tapes. The ram couldn't even receive the info and the processor would lock up in a moment. Without the memory, long and short term, without the processing power to compute millions of equations, it is virtually impossible to even consider the problem. At least the machine would lock up and shut down with the overload, but when people, who think they know more than they really do, confront a problem vastly immense and beyond their comprehension, they seem to churn for years in a locked up state, content to think they've solved the equation with their limited input and inferior processing power, while in reality they never scratched the surface. Why? The key to the wisdom they needed was in the place they never went, the prayer room, on their knees, asking God humbly for wisdom.
Ah, so all the seeming contractictions in the bible would really all make perfect sense if we only had bigger brains to understand it all. What a perfectly unprovable theory, and how far less likely than the hypothesis that the Old Testment is simply the fanatic ravings of unelightened bronze age sheep herders.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 12/28/2004 23:11:20 |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2004 : 23:20:33 [Permalink]
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Why are so many people interested in this topic? Because on the misunderstanding of this issue many people stumble. Rather than withhold judgment, many find it necessary to condemn God...a God that they say doesn't exist and, thus, they condemn those who believe in this God as total whackos and dangerous lunatics. And in this arrogant, shallow condemnation they take pleasure, not recognizing the stumbling stones they set in the way of so many people. Would to God they would keep their unbelief to themselves, but how would they ever hear the truth and possibly find some light on their darkened path? Perhaps they are ones that have had their heart hardened by God. Then why does God still desire mercy? "32For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye." Ezekiel 18
"11Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die," Ezekiel 33
The answers are reasonable to the humble mind and soul. No indoctrination is necessary, "make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die?" No amount of reasoning is sufficient for the hardened heart and mind. Has God hardened your heart? The same God gives grace to the humble.
Paul of Tarsus was an extremely proud and arrogant man, going about to imprison all who followed the Nazarene. If God could change this man, there is hope for you and me, also. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2004 : 23:22:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
God dealt with me in a personal way and is still dealing many, many years later. I've learned there are things too high for us to comprehend fully. One of those things is God's judgment and dealing with men. God never promised a rose garden to man after he fell into sin. Just the opposite. He did promise a Savior, but He made one and only one stipulation in receiving that salvation: the promise is "to him that believeth".
Hi, Doomar-- I have a point of clarification here. I freely admit that my Bible lore is rusty. Could you point to the OT passages that speak of the Savior which you mention? Thanks.
quote:
I can see justice in God's dealing with man described in the Old Testament, but I'm realizing that to explain it to someone who opposes faith is very difficult. Something must happen in our darkened minds to comprehend the situation and recognize the enormous complexity of it. Consider, if you will, an old Texas Instrument computer w/ a cassette tape drive and a tv for a monitor; very limited capability (I owned one). It had only a small amount of RAM memory and no hard drive, you had to use your cassette recorder as the hard drive. What if I tried to plug into that limited miniscule system a formula for figuring out world weather patterns? Just the data alone would require millions of cassette tapes. The ram couldn't even receive the info and the processor would lock up in a moment. Without the memory, long and short term, without the processing power to compute millions of equations, it is virtually impossible to even consider the problem. At least the machine would lock up and shut down with the overload, but when people, who think they know more than they really do, confront a problem vastly immense and beyond their comprehension, they seem to churn for years in a locked up state, content to think they've solved the equation with their limited input and inferior processing power, while in reality they never scratched the surface. Why? The key to the wisdom they needed was in the place they never went, the prayer room, on their knees, asking God humbly for wisdom.
This is a rather facile and, to be honest, a particularly insulting analogy. To begin, I find the solution "just open your heart to God" to be so childish and--seriously-- meaningless that it makes me laugh. It makes as much sense as me opening my heart to George Washington, Julius Caesar or Merlin the Magician. You may as well ask my what purple tastes like-- it's a non-sensical solution.
Furthermore, it's a typical (and distressing) notion often repreated by Christians that we're all just too stupid to get it, so we might as well give up trying and instead just buy into it. If only we'd just get "on [our] knees" and pray for solutions, God would help us out. Ostensibly, whatever befalls us from this suggestion, we're to buy into the notion that it's the right suggestion, even if it leads to greater disaster, as it's all part of God's (unknowable) plan.
It is no surprise that I find your arguments completely unconvincing, if not utterly stupid. However, all is not lost. What I really want is a simple answer: why is it that one must beleive before one finds your god. Why not the other way around? After all, in just about every other thing I do in my life, I only believe in it once it's been shown to me. Not in vague ways-- "Look, the sun! It must prove God!"-- but honest-to-goodness ways. God-- if he's real-- knows who I am and should know what it takes to convince me. If so, why the test? Why force me to "find" him through coinsidences and leaps of logic? And if it's all about the test, then seriously: Fuck Him. Honest. Fuck God. If God's all about me finding him trough a rainbow, or because I called my mom and woke her right before she dozed off and set the house on fire because of an unattended iron, then he can seriously have his little eternal pardise without me; I'd just as soon worship crossword puzzles.
So-- rant aside-- I find your analogy to humans being TI computers silly, as do I the suggestion that we only fail to "find" your god because we just don't believe. It may bring to you comfort that a god has a reason for destroying a family, or sending a man into financial ruin, but not me. Until God shows himself to me, that is. Then I'll get it and believe. |
| Edited by - Cuneiformist on 12/29/2004 07:41:58 |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2004 : 23:30:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
Paul of Tarsus was an extremely proud and arrogant man, going about to imprison all who followed the Nazarene. If God could change this man, there is hope for you and me, also.
Right! Because God fucking blinded his ass and gave him a serious talkin' to! With all sorts of witnesses (Acts 9:1-22)!! Why doesn't your god do this for the rest of us?!? It's easy to say "ooohhh look at Paul!!" But if we don't get the special divine Yahweh treatment, then why should we believe?
Let's rephrase the question: if Paul (Saul, really) doesn't get the special blinding on the way to Damascus, does he become the Christian messenger? Hardly. So, I turn your question back to you: if God can give Paul such a sign, why can he not do the same for me? |
| Edited by - Cuneiformist on 12/29/2004 07:45:41 |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2004 : 23:32:55 [Permalink]
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| Bigger brains aren't the answer. We don't need to comprehend all the reasons, whys and wherefores. In time we may understand better, with a little overhauling on our insides. Man is not just a mind and body, y'all. I heard an evolutionary scientist describe it last night on the radio. He said, man has the knowhow and wherewithall, he just needs the "will". How ironic, I thought. A scientist that believes in only mind and body (the physical), just said we need the "will". Huh? where do I go in the autopsy room to cut out the will? That unseen part of man that many of you people don't believe in consists of the "will". Known also as the heart of a man or spirit. That part that makes the decisions and tells the mind and body what to do. You all have one, but you're just too learned to recognize what it is. But that's another subject. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2004 : 02:25:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
We see a natural disaster that takes 55,000+ lives as horrendous and awful and terrifying and it is, yet we sit back and know a million people were killed in Rwanda by thug gangs, and no nation hardly raised a voice in protest, and yet, this type of thing is caused solely by men.
Yes, the earthquake is a natural disaster, and is thus our of our control, but not God's. The killings in Rwanda is committed by Man, and is thus under Man's control.
God had the power to prevent the quake, but the sadistic voyeur just sat on his ass watching, allowing it all to happen.
Man had the power to prevent the massacres in Rwanda by sending in troops to wipe the thug's collective asses, but chose to stand by watching.
I consider both Man and God to be evil for neglecting to prevent evil when it is in their power to do so.
Since the people getting killed in Rwanda aren't Southern Baptists, why the fuck should Americans care what happen to them? They were probably Muslims anyway, so it's not a great loss...
Why haven't the God-Fearing America done more to put an end to the killing in Rwanda? Shit, I forgot, they've been busy protecting their oil-investments in Iraq.
quote:
Some things we can intervene and do something, Dr., and some things we cannot. Some are within our authority and some are outside of our authority.
Yes. And stuff outside our authority is God's authority, right?
quote:
Would we scream at God for commanding some nation to kill those thugs who murdered a million people?
I wouldn't, because the thugs were the ones that committed the atrocities. However, I would start to disagree when any collateral damage is regarded acceptable.
quote:
Yet, in our argument in question, many are condemning God for calling for the slaughter of all these Amalekites, who were also murderers, and the main reason is that God called for the death of all their children, too.
YES! Too much collateral damage, and the ones killed were not killed for the things they did, but some ancestors of theirs.
Though I'd admit, it probably flies with you, as you acknowledge that the original sin is inherited. And the Bible teaches that God's punishment is inherited some 3 to 4 generations.
In that regard I consider the Bible excrement, but you already knew I thought so.
quote:
Of course, the Rwandan gangs killed women and children too, so punishing them by having all their women and children killed would be too horrible, right?
So you believe that "an eye for an eye" should extend beyond the offender's person, do you?
Then do not scream injustice about the 9/11 attack. I suddenly find it a just punishment. Too bad agnostics and atheists got hit too. But that's collateral for you.
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Our justice would be better than God's, we would be more merciful, right?
Yes, because God is a fictional character created by (as someone else said) bronze-age sheep herders, with an undeveloped sense of justice beyond "eye for an eye".
quote:
Our hindsight 6,000 years later is so clear.
It is to those who would examine history with a critical eye and ask "What could we have done better, and how do we proceed to do better in the future?"
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 12/29/2004 02:26:56 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2004 : 02:29:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
I heard an evolutionary scientist describe it last night on the radio. He said, man has the knowhow and wherewithall, he just needs the "will". How ironic, I thought. A scientist that believes in only mind and body (the physical), just said we need the "will". Huh? where do I go in the autopsy room to cut out the will? That unseen part of man that many of you people don't believe in consists of the "will".
As the physical structure and activity of the human brain are the likely source of human consciousness, it only follows that the attributes of consciousness are a result of the same.
Only woo-woo's and the ignorant religious feel a need to insert the supernatural.
Get over yourself Doomar. You have ignored every question posed to you in this thread, responding only with religious gibberish and outright attacks.
Quite frankly, you are beginning to bore.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2004 : 07:36:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
Actually, I had rejected whatever years of Sunday School I had at the age of 18.
Well, at least we have that in common.
quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
I believed that God was for the weak and infirm, a crutch, so to speak.
I came to believe, and I still do, that a belief in God is for those too arrogant to believe their lives will ever be over, or those so miserable in this life they can't bear to believe this is all there is.
quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
God dealt with me in a personal way and is still dealing many, many years later.
Sure he is, Doomar. Do you believe in ghosts and/or "spirit energy"? Your evidence of God's existence is somewhat Storm-like.
quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
I've learned there are things too high for us to comprehend fully.
No, that's what you think you've learned. The difference between those of us who are skeptics and you, Doomar, is that many of us once believed as you do now. Many of us opened our hearts to God, but (because our minds and our eyes were also open) we came to see that the belief in God just didn't make sense.
quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
One of those things is God's judgment and dealing with men. God never promised a rose garden to man after he fell into sin. Just the opposite. He did promise a Savior...
Don't you take issue at all with a creator who sent His own son as a blood sacrifice to himself in order to grant forgiveness?
quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
I can see justice in God's dealing with man described in the Old Testament, but I'm realizing that to explain it to someone who opposes faith is very difficult.
Explaining something that doesn't make sense often is.
quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
Something must happen in our darkened minds to comprehend the situation and recognize the enormous complexity of it.
No, Doomar. Something must happen to create blind spots in our reason. The promise of life eternal is certainly enticing. Who would not be tempted to believe such a thing is possible? Who would not be tempted to throw reason aside in order to live blissfully forever?
quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
Consider, if you will, an old Texas Instrument computer w/ a cassette tape drive and a tv for a monitor; very limited capability (I owned one).
We're Kentuckians, Doomar. Keeneland is in your neck of the woods, so I'll bet you've seen a race or two. I'll also bet you know what blinders (blinkers) are. Some horses can't race without them. You are such a horse, Doomar. You are blind to anything that distracts you from staying the course.
quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
The key to the wisdom they needed was in the place they never went, the prayer room, on their knees, asking God humbly for wisdom.
And what does God say?
Be warned. If you quote Garth Brooks I will cyber scream.
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Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2004 : 08:12:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
Why are so many people interested in this topic? Because on the misunderstanding of this issue many people stumble. Rather than withhold judgment, many find it necessary to condemn God...
I don't condemn God... Unless God is precisely as described in the Christian Bible. Such a being appears to be just as vindictive and capricious as any person alive today, and so doesn't deserve the respect He Demands (demands like a whiny little brat, by the way). If (if) a god exists, I would hope that he/she/it would behave in a much more enlightened fashion than I would. In other words, if the Bible is correct about the existence of God, I can't imagine that it's correct about everything else. We know it's wrong about some things (four-legged grasshoppers, the Flood, etc.), so why not the nature of God?quote:
a God that they say doesn't exist and, thus, they condemn those who believe in this God as total whackos and dangerous lunatics.
And some are, and use the Bible as a weapon. See "Inquisition" or "Ireland." Many just want to limit the personal freedoms of others based upon a book. Even more wish to use the same book to deny the wonders of science.quote:
And in this arrogant, shallow condemnation they take pleasure, not recognizing the stumbling stones they set in the way of so many people.
Baloney. This is just more of your attempted demonizing of non-believers. I don't find pleasure in the realization that Christian fanatics (actually, all fanatics) are dangerous people, I find fear.quote:
Would to God they would keep their unbelief to themselves...
Why is it that the minority should keep quiet? Why shouldn't it be those, like you, who have assured yourself that you will be saved, who shut the hell up about it? How arrogant!quote:
...but how would they ever hear the truth and possibly find some light on their darkened path? Perhaps they are ones that have had their heart hardened by God.
Great. It's not my fault then, that I'm not a believer. It's God's fault. Thanks, Doomar.quote:
The answers are reasonable to the humble mind and soul. No indoctrination is necessary, "make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die?"
I don't find it reasonable to believe in an afterlife. Why should I? Because God says it is so? That would require indoctrination. I have come full-circle.quote:
No amount of reasoning is sufficient for the hardened heart and mind.
If you consider "reasoning" to include belief in things for which there is no evidence, you are using a different definition of the word than I.quote:
Has God hardened your heart? The same God gives grace to the humble.
If God is hardening my heart, how can I possibly overcome such divine intervention to become humble? Are you claiming that I have power over God?quote:
Paul of Tarsus was an extremely proud and arrogant man, going about to imprison all who followed the Nazarene. If God could change this man, there is hope for you and me, also.
If God changed that man, then Free Will is a lie. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2005 : 16:59:54 [Permalink]
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| Am I talking to tree stumps? |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2005 : 18:49:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
Am I talking to tree stumps?
Nice failure to answer any pertinent point. It seems to me that we are the ones speaking to a stump. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2005 : 21:56:58 [Permalink]
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If God is hardening my heart, how can I possibly overcome such divine intervention to become humble? Are you claiming that I have power over God?
God hardens those who resist Him...the proud...the unrepentant sinners, relishing in their contempt for anything said to be of God. Now should a person decide that maybe he doesn't know it all as much as he thinks and humble himself a bit, God will give that person grace. If you're trying to persuade us that God made you proud and arrogant, somehow, I don't think you're going to persuade too many. You're the one patting yourself on the back and failing to thank God for the many gifts He's bestowed on you. You're the one who wants all the credit and none of the blame. Change your mind and maybe you'll find a difference in the way you look at things. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2005 : 06:25:03 [Permalink]
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So that's it. I've got to be ignorant, selfish and, against all logical reasons, humble at once. I don't know why the word 'sheep' keeps coming back.
Thanks for clarifying. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2005 : 13:59:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
God hardens those who resist Him...the proud...the unrepentant sinners, relishing in their contempt for anything said to be of God.
Oh, good. That doesn't describe me.quote:
Now should a person decide that maybe he doesn't know it all as much as he thinks and humble himself a bit, God will give that person grace.
But by your description, God's hardening of hearts will only lead to a downward spiral. How is a person who actively resists God, and whose heart has been hardened by God, supposed to humble himself?quote:
If you're trying to persuade us that God made you proud and arrogant, somehow, I don't think you're going to persuade too many.
To suggest that God isn't responsible for pride and arrogance is to deny God the credit He deserves.quote:
You're the one patting yourself on the back and failing to thank God for the many gifts He's bestowed on you.
And I fail to blame God for the many crappy things which have been bestowed on me, as well. What's your point?quote:
You're the one who wants all the credit and none of the blame.
Now this is simply insulting, coming from someone who complained of being unfairly judged. I blame myself for my bad actions all the time. And I fail to give myself credit which isn't due. I've got zero evidence that God has been involved with getting me to where I am now in life (though I will credit many people who've helped me along), and also zero evidence that my failures to act are anyone's fault but mine.quote:
Change your mind and maybe you'll find a difference in the way you look at things.
Why should I change my mind to agree with an outlook that denies reality? Because it would be good for my "soul" (for which I also have no evidence)? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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verlch
SFN Regular
781 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2005 : 15:47:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
Something must happen in our darkened minds to comprehend the situation and recognize the enormous complexity of it. Consider, if you will, an old Texas Instrument computer w/ a cassette tape drive and a tv for a monitor; very limited capability (I owned one). It had only a small amount of RAM memory and no hard drive, you had to use your cassette recorder as the hard drive. What if I tried to plug into that limited miniscule system a formula for figuring out world weather patterns? Just the data alone would require millions of cassette tapes. The ram couldn't even receive the info and the processor would lock up in a moment. Without the memory, long and short term, without the processing power to compute millions of equations, it is virtually impossible to even consider the problem. At least the machine would lock up and shut down with the overload, but when people, who think they know more than they really do, confront a problem vastly immense and beyond their comprehension, they seem to churn for years in a locked up state, content to think they've solved the equation with their limited input and inferior processing power, while in reality they never scratched the surface. Why? The key to the wisdom they needed was in the place they never went, the prayer room, on their knees, asking God humbly for wisdom.
Ah, so all the seeming contractictions in the bible would really all make perfect sense if we only had bigger brains to understand it all. What a perfectly unprovable theory, and how far less likely than the hypothesis that the Old Testment is simply the fanatic ravings of unelightened bronze age sheep herders.
Considering your bible, written by one man, the origin of species in a difficult pill to swallow! The bible was written by 40 men from a time span over 1500 years as a witness to my Maker!
http://www.bible.com/answers/afacts.html
The bible does not have one author it has many. All speaking the same truth and pointing to the God of Abraham, Isacc and Jacob as the God to be worshipped! |
What came first the chicken or the egg?
How do plants exist without bugs in the soil, and bugs in the soil without plants producing oxygen?
There are no atheists in foxholes
Underlying the evolutionary theory is not just the classic "stuff" of science — conclusions arrived at through prolonged observation and experimentation. Evolution is first an atheistic, materialistic world view. In other words, the primary reason for its acceptance has little to do with the evidence for or against it. Evolution is accepted because men are atheists by faith and thus interpret the evidence to cor-respond to their naturalistic philosophy.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. II Timothy 4:3,4
II Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall
send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
You can not see the 'wind', but you can see its effect!!!!
Evolution was caused by genetic mistakes at each stage?
Radical Evolution has 500 million years to find fossils of fictional drawings of (hard core)missing links, yet they find none.
We have not seen such moral darkness since the dark ages, coencides with
teaching evolution in schools. (Moral darkness)
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, EPH 6:12.
"Thus, many scientists embracing naturalism find themselves in the seeming dilemma recently articulated by biochemist Franklin Harold: "We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity [i.e., Darwinian evolution]; but we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical system, only a variety of wishful speculations."
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