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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
 Posted - 12/21/2004 : 14:07:48 [Permalink]
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8) Identity theft.
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"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2004 : 14:27:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
8) Identity theft.
Excellent point. Hadn't thought of the professional criminal element.
9) Stalkers
10) General harrassment |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2004 : 19:43:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by chaloobi
Just to be devil's advocate so as to try and tease out the best argument here, the answer might be that they'd be willing to allow a professional investigator do that in the interests of stopping terrorism but to have a family member, friend, or aquaintance do it, someone with no legitimate reason to go through their personal stuff, is totally different and unacceptable. And there is a legitimate side to that argument - ideally the investigator has no interest in all the dirt and embarrassing crap people do. He will ignore that stuff in his investigations and keep it essentially confidential.
If the government were kept by perfectly-programmed robots with insurmountable security systems, you'd be correct. But right now we're stuck with all-too-human investigators who are far from ideal, even before we give up more privacy to them.
Abuse of power is an ongoing historical fact, not a paranoid delusion. Everything from Watergate, to priest pedophilia, to a school board's decision to hamstring science, to local cops harassing people they don't like, to a Walmart manager getting extra time from the single mom who can't afford to quit.
There are very few people who won't take advantage of a situation if they think they run no or little risk. And those who are given power (even a small amount) by their government and/or constituents are more likely to find themselves in positions of advantage over others, due largely to the fact that to get there, they've been invested with trust in the first place. It's only a small step to abuse that trust.
And that includes trust within the levels of government. The people who actually perform a search in your house may not be the people who are interested in your personal downfall. They may well just be acting on orders, and have no idea of the real reason they've been sent to sieze your computer. You'll have no clue, either, until the poop starts hitting the fan. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2004 : 19:52:28 [Permalink]
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Well said, Dave.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2004 : 02:39:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Ok, here you answer my last reply. . . . but again, if none of that embarrassing stuff has anything to do with terrorism, then the government wouldn't have a record of it. They would only have a record that you had been searched and nothing incriminating was found.
Not the US government. If they run an investigation, they keep detailed records, regardless if they find anything incriminating or not.
quote:
Just to be devil's advocate so as to try and tease out the best argument here, the answer might be that they'd be willing to allow a professional investigator do that in the interests of stopping terrorism but to have a family member, friend, or aquaintance do it, someone with no legitimate reason to go through their personal stuff, is totally different and unacceptable. And there is a legitimate side to that argument - ideally the investigator has no interest in all the dirt and embarrassing crap people do. He will ignore that stuff in his investigations and keep it essentially confidential.
If the government isn't restrained from violating our civil rights, they will. There is ample (as Dave_W said) historical precedent.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2004 : 06:35:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
<snip>If the government isn't restrained from violating our civil rights, they will. There is ample (as Dave_W said) historical precedent.
I agree, this is what makes the Homeland Security department so scary. . . . Anyway, the unfortunate fact is that the argument "If you're not breaking the law, you have nothing to be afraid of" is a nice, concise, sound-bite one-liner that a talk radio host can convincingly and derisively throw out there in his endless rant against liberalism and eventually convince many a sensible individual to give up their own personal rights . . . . While Dave W's piece was eloquent, well written and eminently convincing, I fear such arguments won't counter the propaganda being whispered in millions of American's ears for hours at a time, every day. The whole thing is disturbing as hell. |
-Chaloobi
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2004 : 15:53:40 [Permalink]
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Well, it's been said before by better men than I. Those who would sacrifice freedom for security will surely lose both!
What these people, in general, fail to comprehend is simple. The US is the most powerfull nation in the world for two reasons.
1. Reliance on science and empirical evidence to shape our technology and policy.
2. The freedom of individuals to investigate the natural world and share information without fear of (more than minimal) government intervention.
The argument "If you've nothing to hide, then what are you worried about?" is patently ridiculous. Plenty of people have things to hide, and are doing nothing wrong. A genuine desire for privacy is not a crime.
If we allow the court of public opinion to have precedent over empirical evidence (as we are apparently doing in many instances), then we all will lose.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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tw101356
Skeptic Friend
USA
333 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2004 : 21:55:48 [Permalink]
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11) How do you know that you haven't inadvertently committed a crime?
Have you ever, alone in the privacy of your own home, threatened to kill someone because they angered you? What if the president angered you because he failed to support your favorite conservative bill?
12) What about innocent communication that sounds like a crime?
What if you like to watch old spy movies and thrillers and the person listening at the other end is not familiar with them and thinks the conversations are real? What if you're writing your first novel and you like to discuss the conspiracy that's central to the plot with your writers group?
- TW
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- TW
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gtpooh
New Member
USA
15 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2004 : 13:52:33 [Permalink]
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Ah, I'm an exhibitionist. I would LOVE if someone were listening. Alas, what they would mostly hear is things like us comparing the writing of Stephen King with Neal Stephenson and Dan Simmons and arguing about whether King is better {his opinion} because what he writes is accessible to the masses or Stephensen/Simmons are better {my opinion} and we should blame public education for creating a generation of idiots who don't know enough to appreciate a well written piece of literature that alludes to mythology and science.
quote:
Originally posted by Wendy
quote:
Originally posted by chaloobi
So, how do you answer this argument.
I say, "I don't conduct any illegal activities, but I do like to call my husband at his office and talk dirty to him sometimes." There's not a thing in the world wrong with that, but I do prefer that it is private.
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Gwenny
Sex is not the answer. Sex is the question. YES, is the answer! |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2004 : 15:17:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by tw101356
What if you're writing your first novel and you like to discuss the conspiracy that's central to the plot with your writers group?
Whoa! That just gave me a chill... imagine that, being arrested because I was discussing the way a character's gonna kill another?
Though, I'd most likely be arrested due to software piracy, heh. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2004 : 16:01:15 [Permalink]
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I think Three's Company has shown all of us the dangers inherent in reaching conclusions based on snippets of other people's conversations.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2004 : 16:35:11 [Permalink]
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hijacking imminent!
quote:
Stephensen/Simmons are better
Stephenson is a great writer. I much prefer his work over King.
/unhijack
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2004 : 17:04:56 [Permalink]
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Hijackers ahoy!
I haven't read the other person. But King's awesome - he's got imagination.
/hijacking. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2004 : 08:08:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
Hijackers ahoy!
I haven't read the other person. But King's awesome - he's got imagination.
/hijacking.
If ya'll are gonna hijack the thread, you could at least give us the courtesy of an "Avast, ye hearties, prepare to be boarded!"
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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gtpooh
New Member
USA
15 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2004 : 11:05:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
Hijackers ahoy!
I haven't read the other person. But King's awesome - he's got imagination.
/hijacking.
You really should read Simmons. He is one of the most erudite writers I have ever read. Almost everything he writes has poetic allusions. Big series by him, Hyperion, is just one long sci-fi/fantasy tribute to Keats. Newish short story collection, Worlds Enough and Time, takes its title from the first line of the Andrew Marvell poem, "To His Coy Mistress".
And he writes lots of other stuff, a while back (gods, have we been in CA three years) we heard him read from his then new book Darwin's Blade, about an insurance investigator and some of the interesting claims he investigates--many taken from actual insurance reports.
Here's his official site: http://www.dansimmons.com/ .
He's really a nice guy, too. My husband has actually been his fan long enough that he recognizes him at a signing and chats with him about stuff happening back in Denver. I meet him at the World Horror Con in 2001. He's much much much nicer than Harlan Ellison. {gwenny wanders off muttering about racist old s.o.b.s} But not as cute as Neil Gaiman. {sighs} I love me goth boys. LOL
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Gwenny
Sex is not the answer. Sex is the question. YES, is the answer! |
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