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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 12/30/2004 : 01:30:07
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Students suing teachers because they don't like what they are being taught? Oh yes....
quote:
In many ways, the trend echoes past campus conflicts — but turns them around. Once, it was liberal activists citing the importance of "diversity" in pressing their agendas for curriculum change. Now, conservatives have adopted much of the same language in calling for greater openness to their viewpoints.
Similarly, academic freedom guidelines have traditionally been cited to protect left-leaning students from punishment for disagreeing with teachers about such issues as U.S. neutrality before World War II and involvement in Vietnam. Now, those same guidelines are being invoked by conservative students who support the war in Iraq.
To many professors, there's a new and deeply troubling aspect to this latest chapter in the debate over academic freedom: students trying to dictate what they don't want to be taught.
"Even the most contentious or disaffected of students in the '60s or early '70s never really pressed this kind of issue," said Robert O'Neil, former University of Virginia president and director of the Thomas Jefferson Center for the Protection of Free Expression.
Those behind the trend call it an antidote to the liberal dominance of university faculties. But many educators, while agreeing that students should never feel bullied, worry that they just want to avoid exposure to ideas that challenge their core beliefs — an essential part of education.
Some also fear that teachers will shy away from sensitive topics or fend off criticism by "balancing" their syllabuses with opposing viewpoints, even if they represent inferior scholarship.
I don't understand this. As is mentioned near the beginning of the article, the University of NC was actually sued for assigning a book on the Koran to entering freshmen (they lost, but got what they wanted anyway).
quote:
Conservatives Flip Academic Freedom Debate
Liberal professors are accused of attempting to indoctrinate students. But some teachers say pupils are trying to avoid new ideas.
by Justin Pope
At the University of North Carolina, three incoming freshmen sue over a reading assignment they say offends their Christian beliefs.
Do these peckerheads not want a broad knowledge of the world around them? If not, why seek higher education in the first place? It gets worse; even death threats have been bandied about.
Of course, it is not entirely one-sided. Some instructors do indeed inject politics into their courses, whether it is pertenent to the subject or not.
Interesting, if discouraging, article.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
 Posted - 12/30/2004 : 06:51:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Do these peckerheads not want a broad knowledge of the world around them? If not, why seek higher education in the first place? It gets worse; even death threats have been bandied about.
I think these peckerheads just want a diploma so they can get a high paying job that they will pursue with little or no work ethic.
What saddens me is what will befall those who seek higher education because they truly love learning and want to acquire knowledge. Soon instructors will be afraid to teach them. |
Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2004 : 07:58:44 [Permalink]
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I suppose when you're paying for an education by choice, a lawsuit over what's being taught is a possibility. I mean, you can sue your doctor, your mechanic, etc., so why not your professor? You're basically hiring your teachers to provide you with a service, and if you find that service to be substandard, you've got a right to sue for a redress of grievances.
Compare this, of course, with grade-school education, which is compulsory (as is paying for it with taxes). The courts have long decided that nobody has a right to a public education - even though an education, public or private, is mandated - and so you can't sue the schools for simply providing a crappy education. For example, if the courts decide that "Intelligent Design" is not a religious viewpoint (I shudder to think it), parents have no right to sue over their kids being taught wrong science. The only option is to go through the public process of changing the educational standards, perhaps by changing the school board or getting legislation passed.
I think a solution to the higher-education problem is simply for colleges and universities to precisely define the services they will offer to consumers (students), and how those services will be delivered, including descriptions of the latitude the schools grant their instructors. That way, students will be better able to choose the school they wish to attend. Of course, it's been 20 years since I even tried to go to college, so I don't know how much of this sort of thing goes on today.
And to continue the mechanic analogy, it's kind of hard to sue a garage for using crappy parts if they've got a big sign out front saying "we're cheap because our parts come from the junkyard next door." If the students enter a school with a full knowledge that the instructors don't necessarily share their political and/or social views, it's going to look pretty silly of them to be shocked when they don't "mesh." |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2004 : 08:48:51 [Permalink]
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A valid point, certainly.
On the other hand, they can all go to Liberty U, Oral Roberts' shindig, or The One That's Name I've Forgotten, et al. If they are not studious enough to learn all about the universtity, a secular education will do them little good however excellent.
I find a certain funky humor in the suit mentioned. Conservatives whine ad nauseum about frivelous lawsuits, you see....
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 12/30/2004 08:52:25 |
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Paulos23
Skeptic Friend
USA
446 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2004 : 08:50:20 [Permalink]
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Interesting.
College is where I started forming my current religous beliefs. And it started in an ancent history class. I remember the shock of learning that God was not always worshipped, and that there was other gods worshipped. That got me questioning everything I learned in Sunday school. :)
If they don't want to broaden their minds, they should go to a trade school or get in an internship. In college they are going to be exposed to new ideas, in and out of the classroom. If you leave college with the same set of beliefs as you went in with you had to have blinders on and living in your own little world.
I think Wendy is right, most of these guys go to college to get a better paying job (I knew/know lots of people like that) and didn't give a flying tree squirel about anything else. However, most do get some mind opening education in the process. |
You can go wrong by being too skeptical as readily as by being too trusting. -- Robert A. Heinlein
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2004 : 09:35:47 [Permalink]
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If I pay someone to teach me Judo, and the education I receives gets my ass kicked all over, or if the teacher decides to show me his "kitchen Judo" instead, or if he spends the time pontificating on the needs of blind kids, I'd be pissed and expecting my money back.
It seems obvious to me that at least a few kids going into higher education are, indeed, treating it as a "teach me how to do the job I want to do, and nothing more or less" kind of service. Also obviously, the schools are considering themselves to be teachers of "life skills," and not as simple MBA factories. It's this discontinuity of viewpoints which is causing the problems.
Taking the MBA example, though, I don't think there are any "MBA factories" in the world. So such students desiring such an education are out of luck, period. Perhaps they feel that lawsuits are the only way they'll be able to get what they want.
On the other hand, it seems to me that to be a good administrator, you have to have those "life skills" the schools want to teach, anyway. I'm sure we all know managers who lack people skills, but I just can't imagine specifically trying to be a manager without people skills. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2004 : 11:03:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
If I pay someone to teach me Judo, and the education I receives gets my ass kicked all over, or if the teacher decides to show me his "kitchen Judo" instead, or if he spends the time pontificating on the needs of blind kids, I'd be pissed and expecting my money back.
And here you would have excellent grounds for a lawsuit and I would support it. Instructors who stray too far from the subject matter are not good teachers. No matter what their knowledge, they lack wisdom.
I have always thought of school, even though I never attended much of it, as a place to learn how to learn. Thus, an assignment should should be aimed toward that end. The book on the Koran was, in my opinion, a perfectly valid assignment as it gives the student a bit of an insite into other cultures. Therefore, the suit was bullshit and I am disappointed that UNC deleted the mandatory rule for it.
Education seems to becoming a political/religious issue and this is not good. Secular universities should remain secular in their curriculums. If a student desires a school teaching form a spiritual angle, there are many. Falwell is now training lawyers, although it remains to be seen how good their training will be.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Paulos23
Skeptic Friend
USA
446 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2004 : 11:22:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
On the other hand, it seems to me that to be a good administrator, you have to have those "life skills" the schools want to teach, anyway. I'm sure we all know managers who lack people skills, but I just can't imagine specifically trying to be a manager without people skills.
I agree, however that hasn't stopped people without those life skills from becoming managers and administrators. |
You can go wrong by being too skeptical as readily as by being too trusting. -- Robert A. Heinlein
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2004 : 14:05:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Paulos23
I think Wendy is right, most of these guys go to college to get a better paying job (I knew/know lots of people like that) and didn't give a flying tree squirel about anything else. However, most do get some mind opening education in the process.
Being in college myself, I guarantee you that's the case of most people in my class(es). |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2004 : 14:46:53 [Permalink]
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The amusing part.... is that these people are admitting an essential failure of their own personal worldviews. That they cannot withstand honest examination.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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