Skeptic Friends Network

Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?
Home | Forums | Active Topics | Active Polls | Register | FAQ | Contact Us  
  Connect: Chat | SFN Messenger | Buddy List | Members
Personalize: Profile | My Page | Forum Bookmarks  
 All Forums
 Our Skeptic Forums
 Religion
 What I got out of chat nite 12/29/04
 New Topic  Topic Locked
 Printer Friendly Bookmark this Topic BookMark Topic
Next Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 3

Storm
SFN Regular

USA
708 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2004 :  15:13:58  Show Profile  Visit Storm's Homepage Send Storm a Private Message
Well last nite was my first nite for chat and I must say I had a great time. Much more low key than these forums but none the less productive and enligtning. We talked of personal feelings, Tsnuami,Beer, resolutions, diets, and yes my favorite ghosts. We also talked about Atheists and Agnostic. Each of which some of you are . But I thought to myself what am I?

Atheist... No...
Agnostic maybe... Although I do not doubt the knowledge of God or of it's existence. I only have doubt of which God to worship which philosophy to adhere to that best suits me... who I am... But I definetly know something exists.
Science calls it nature.. Religion calls it God... I call it Odin, Freyja, Tor, Loki,
The fact is though the phenomenon labeled God, Goddess or nature exists. Just like that of Ghosts...
so that is what I got out of the chat. Everyone should join in on Wednsday nites.
[Moved to the Religion folder - Dave W.]

Siberia
SFN Addict

Brazil
2322 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2004 :  15:18:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Siberia's Homepage  Send Siberia an AOL message  Send Siberia a Yahoo! Message Send Siberia a Private Message
I would. But my timezone tosses it in quite a bad time, considering I'm handicapped and need my dear mom's help to do such simple thing as going to bed.

"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa

"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
Go to Top of Page

Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13474 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2004 :  16:54:17   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message
We have a chat folder. Anyhow...
quote:
Storm:
Agnostic maybe... Although I do not doubt the knowledge of God or of it's existence.

A correction. Agnostics do not doubt the knowledge of god. Agnostics are without knowledge of god. Big difference!

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
Go to Top of Page

Storm
SFN Regular

USA
708 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2004 :  17:10:47   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Storm's Homepage Send Storm a Private Message
Are they without knowledge of God because of their doubt
Go to Top of Page

Wendy
SFN Regular

USA
614 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2004 :  17:34:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Wendy a Yahoo! Message Send Wendy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Storm

Are they without knowledge of God because of their doubt



No, we are without knowledge because proof of God's existence likely does not exist. Since we cannot prove a negative (in this case that God does not exist) we are agnostics.

Storm, I beg you, when you don't know (and it happens to everyone) pick up a dictionary, will ya?

Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
Go to Top of Page

H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2004 :  17:37:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Kil

We have a chat folder. Anyhow...
quote:
Storm:
Agnostic maybe... Although I do not doubt the knowledge of God or of it's existence.

A correction. Agnostics do not doubt the knowledge of god. Agnostics are without knowledge of god. Big difference!


Well, technically everyone is without knowledge of god, unless you count those few historical figures who reported to have seen him directly. However, agnostics believe that knowledge of god is impossible. Even if the heavens opened up, a huge face appeared in the sky and shouted "I am god, kneel before me," an agnostic would say we can't know that was god.

By definition, "supernatural" means above or beyond the natural. Quite literally outside our limits of comprehension. The face in the sky could have been a particularly rare but natural weather phenomena. A strange radiation could have spontaneously generated the same mirage in everyone's brain simulataneously...whatever. The point is we could never know it was god, and so we can never come to a conclusion.

I find that particular way of thinking utterly unproductive, and really, unreasonable. I consider myself an atheist, but if such an event happened and was confirmed by many others, I might find myself rethinking my position. People often mistakenly believe that agnostism is some sort of "middle ground" between belief and unbelief, a sort of "no vote" option. It really isn't. It means that you can never come to a decision ever, or at least not in this lifetime. That seems far more inflexible than simply stating that no evidence for god currently exists, and so one currently holds no beliefs in such a god. Atheism is the absence of a belief based on present evidence. Agnostism is a statement about the limits to man's knowledge for all time.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 12/30/2004 17:42:22
Go to Top of Page

Storm
SFN Regular

USA
708 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2004 :  17:46:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Storm's Homepage Send Storm a Private Message
I haved used the dictionary many times Wendy. But is not what I said Wendy the same as you. Only said differently
What is the difference between likely and doubt
Maybe the dictionary...
Go to Top of Page

Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13474 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2004 :  22:12:02   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message
quote:
H. Humbert:
Well, technically everyone is without knowledge of god, unless you count those few historical figures who reported to have seen him directly. However, agnostics believe that knowledge of god is impossible. Even if the heavens opened up, a huge face appeared in the sky and shouted "I am god, kneel before me," an agnostic would say we can't know that was god.

By definition, "supernatural" means above or beyond the natural. Quite literally outside our limits of comprehension. The face in the sky could have been a particularly rare but natural weather phenomena. A strange radiation could have spontaneously generated the same mirage in everyone's brain simulataneously...whatever. The point is we could never know it was god, and so we can never come to a conclusion.

I find that particular way of thinking utterly unproductive, and really, unreasonable. I consider myself an atheist, but if such an event happened and was confirmed by many others, I might find myself rethinking my position. People often mistakenly believe that agnostism is some sort of "middle ground" between belief and unbelief, a sort of "no vote" option. It really isn't. It means that you can never come to a decision ever, or at least not in this lifetime. That seems far more inflexible than simply stating that no evidence for god currently exists, and so one currently holds no beliefs in such a god. Atheism is the absence of a belief based on present evidence. Agnostism is a statement about the limits to man's knowledge for all time.


Sigh, here we go again. If there were good evidence for a god, I too would consider it. I'm not an idiot. The way you describe your position you too could also be called agnostic. And like you I am also an atheist since as an agnostic, I am not a theist. Some atheists say, “There is no God.” A statement of fact that cannot be supported. To my way of thinking, calling myself agnostic is the most precise definition for how I come down on the question of God or Gods becuase it also explains why I am an athiest. Some people prefer athiest. Whatever...
quote:
World Book.

agnostic, noun, adjective.
noun a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known about the existence of God or about things outside of human experience.
(SYN) skeptic, unbeliever, freethinker.
adj. of agnostics or their beliefs.
adv. agnostically.
agnosticism, noun.
the belief or intellectual attitude of agnostics.
Ex. One meets few atheists, though many agnostics. But the agnosticism is humble and open rather than self-satisfied (Atlantic).

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
Go to Top of Page

Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26020 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2004 :  23:00:47   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Storm

Agnostic maybe... Although I do not doubt the knowledge of God or of it's existence. I only have doubt of which God to worship which philosophy to adhere to that best suits me... who I am... But I definetly know something exists.
You are what is known as a deist. Many of the Founding Fathers were deists, believing that there is a creator, but not subscribing to any organized religion.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
Go to Top of Page

H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2004 :  23:04:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Kil
Sigh, here we go again.

Sorry, I wasn't part of "we" last time, so I would have had no idea the subject is tiresome to you.

I prefer the term atheist is simply because it is more direct, though of course to each their own. Agnostic sounds a bit wishy-washy to me. A personal position one might state at a cocktail party that would ruffle the least amount of feathers. It almost sounds like "I am still thinking about it." If more people were blunter about their godlessness, perhaps the term atheist would become less maligned. The cutural bias against it is evident even in your example sentence.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 12/30/2004 23:14:56
Go to Top of Page

Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2004 :  23:19:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
quote:
The fact is though the phenomenon labeled God, Goddess or nature exists.


So now you are claiming that the natural world is god?

Unsupported assertion # ... what is Storm up to? Anyone keeping track? I'll estimate that she's around the 25 mark.

Storm, do you even understand that you are about the equivilent of verlch and Doomar? Just a different flavor....


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
Go to Top of Page

Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 12/31/2004 :  00:09:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message
quote:
However, agnostics believe that knowledge of god is impossible.


I would refrase this to say that knowledge of god does not exist. To say that it is impossible seems unreasonable. In such a case, it would be impossible to prove a positive, which is of course entirely possible (within rational thought).

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
Go to Top of Page

Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13474 Posts

Posted - 12/31/2004 :  00:39:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message
quote:
H. Humbert:
Agnostic sounds a bit wishy-washy to me. A personal position one might state at a cocktail party that would ruffle the least amount of feathers. It almost sounds like "I am still thinking about it."

I do not describe myself as agnostic to evade the issue or soften my beliefs so as to not offend others or to avoid debate. I describe myself that way because I think it says more about what I believe than atheist does. I also identify as an atheist and I usually have to point out that I'm one of those too.
quote:
H. Humbert:
If more people were blunter about their godlessness, perhaps the term atheist would become less maligned. The cutural bias against it is evident even in your example sentence.

There is a bias against both words. And your bias is evident. However, many more people know what an atheist is than what an agnostic is. As you pointed out, agnostics are not fence sitters. But I get that a lot. I'm sorry that agnostic sounds wishy-washy to you. It is a word with a meaning. Seems to me that if you know agnostics are not fence sitters, you should be able to get beyond feeling that way.

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
Go to Top of Page

H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 12/31/2004 :  04:09:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
I would refrase this to say that knowledge of god does not exist. To say that it is impossible seems unreasonable. In such a case, it would be impossible to prove a positive, which is of course entirely possible (within rational thought).

Which is one reason I never considered myself agnostic, it seemed unreasonable. Wendy's definition (in her link) had an additional caveat: "Or, if not impossible, at least impossible at the present time." I had never heard that rider clause before, and it changes my understanding of the word. The difference is entirely a philosophical one.

quote:
Originally posted by Kil
There is a bias against both words. And your bias is evident. However, many more people know what an atheist is than what an agnostic is. As you pointed out, agnostics are not fence sitters. But I get that a lot. I'm sorry that agnostic sounds wishy-washy to you. It is a word with a meaning. Seems to me that if you know agnostics are not fence sitters, you should be able to get beyond feeling that way.

Yeah, good point. I suppose I do have a bias. But as I explained to Ricky, I disagreed with the position on the way it had been defined to me. And although I do know what the term means (or at least I thought I did), it's still too malleable for my tastes. I mean, if someone like Storm can entertain the notion that she herself is an agnostic, it's clear that the word is unclear, or at least imperfectly understood by many.

But you are right, Kil. In the end it matters little how we label our beliefs, so long as they are essentially consistent. And sorry for suggesting that you would adopt a term simply to avoid conflict or debate. I realize you didn't earn the title "Evil Skeptic" from a passive predisposition.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 12/31/2004 04:27:38
Go to Top of Page

Storm
SFN Regular

USA
708 Posts

Posted - 12/31/2004 :  16:57:47   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Storm's Homepage Send Storm a Private Message
Very interesting thread... This is what resulted from chat nite. ... That is great... I am neither an atheist or agnostic I am an odinist...
How are agnostics not fence sitters
I am sensing a little antognism by you H...

I mean, if someone like Storm can entertain the notion that she herself is an agnostic, it's clear that the word is unclear, or at least imperfectly understood by many.

Why does it sound unreasonable that god is natural
Dude how do you know what flavor I am
The phenomenon known as God or what has been labeled God, Odin, Luna, are the same phenomenon labeled nature by the atheists, agnostics.....
Go to Top of Page

H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 12/31/2004 :  17:48:12   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Storm
The phenomenon known as God or what has been labeled God, Odin, Luna, are the same phenomenon labeled nature by the atheists, agnostics.....

No, that's absolutely untrue. Atheists believe that nature follows rules, natural law. By definition god(s) are not limited by those laws and are free to break them.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Go to Top of Page
Page: of 3 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Next Page
 New Topic  Topic Locked
 Printer Friendly Bookmark this Topic BookMark Topic
Jump To:

The mission of the Skeptic Friends Network is to promote skepticism, critical thinking, science and logic as the best methods for evaluating all claims of fact, and we invite active participation by our members to create a skeptical community with a wide variety of viewpoints and expertise.


Home | Skeptic Forums | Skeptic Summary | The Kil Report | Creation/Evolution | Rationally Speaking | Skeptillaneous | About Skepticism | Fan Mail | Claims List | Calendar & Events | Skeptic Links | Book Reviews | Gift Shop | SFN on Facebook | Staff | Contact Us

Skeptic Friends Network
© 2008 Skeptic Friends Network Go To Top Of Page
This page was generated in 0.22 seconds.
Powered by @tomic Studio
Snitz Forums 2000