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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
 Posted - 01/08/2005 : 08:56:29 [Permalink]
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| So are horses. Horses deprived of company develop vices, such as pacing around, kicking the stall until its legs bleed, and sucking air out of wood. It's funny, you see, because these horses can almost surely reverse to a perfectly acceptable behavior towards humans, but when left by themselves will strive to 'destroy' themselves. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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ktesibios
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2005 : 15:32:26 [Permalink]
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I've lived with multiple cats for some years now, and in that time I've lost two of them.
My experience is that the other cats did show a change in their behavior following the death of one of the crew. They seemed to be less secure, more inclined to stay close to me and more demanding of attention. This passed off gradually.
I've noted similar behavior when a roommate who had a cat moved out.
I'm not inclined to anthropomorphize this to "grief", though. Cats seem to be naturally conservative critters- that is, they tend to frown on changes in their environment and routine and take a while to adapt.
One cat I lived with displayed some behavior reminiscent of Siberia's dog. I had a waterbed at that time, and Blob usually stayed off it, being suspicious of the shaky footing; he would walk all around the rim of the frame, occasionally putting a paw on the mattress and looking at me as if to say "uh-uh, ain't walking on that".
But more than once, when I happened to be sick and was lying in bed curled into a little ball of misery, Blob jumped right up on the bed, snuggled up against me and started purring like crazy while kneading my aching back.
Whether he was aware of my condition and was trying to be comforting, or whether he figured that the combination of heated waterbed and feverish human made a nice warm napping spot, or just wanted to be on the scene should I drag myself out of bed and fill up his dish I'll never know.
It was comforting, though. He was a great cat. |
"The Republican agenda is to turn the United States into a third-world shithole." -P.Z.Myers |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2005 : 15:36:51 [Permalink]
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It is comforting.
My mother, sometimes she has these attacks - she starts shivering uncontrollably, to a point she can't move anymore. It's like if she was really, really cold - usually covering her helps.
My dog can somehow 'sense' when mom's going to have one of those fits - 'cause right after mom starts shaking, she leaps on the bed/couch/whatever and curls up against mom's back. She rarely does that with mom, though she's almost always curled behind my legs when I'm lying down. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2005 : 16:03:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
They have a very strong bonding instinct that they have transfered on to their owners. Should they be long term seperated from their owners, many will go into a decline, and some have even been known to die, especally if there is no one else for the animal to bond with.
Right. My mother had this little poodle (7lb, attitude like a pit bull)(dog lived for 15 years) that would literally pine away when my mother was absent. If she'd leave for a few days vacation the dog would refuse to eat, drink or care for itself. I'd have to, literally, pick him up from his bed several times a day and take him outside. Also, had to use tablescraps to convince him to eat and drink.
(edit to add: Was this a chat topic? Just curious why it is in the chat folder...) |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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| Edited by - Dude on 01/09/2005 16:04:00 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2005 : 06:01:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
(edit to add: Was this a chat topic? Just curious why it is in the chat folder...)
Indeed a good question. I'm moving this topic to General Discussions. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2005 : 08:47:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
a) learn to communicate accurately with animals or b) learn how to detect emotions in other species.
I believe animals do grieve. By grief I mean. Feelings associated with loss. I think you are correct in the fact that we need to learn how to communicate better with animals... Although we are able to read their feelings through their actions. No two people grieve alike... So no two animals would I suppose... Many of my clients do talk about how the surviving pet does not eat, sleep, looks for other pet....
Animals do feel pain, Joy ,I see it when my clients come in and kiss me {that's the pet} when they wag their tails. I have one cat of mine Luna named after the Moon Goddess Who sleeps with me everynight. Paws wrapped around my wrist... She loves me and I her. If she can love can she not then grieve? Maybe animals do not grieve as long as humans because they better understand the cycle of life and death....
With Great Love Comes Great Grief...
After Great presence their is Great Absence...
Spiritual beliefs can illuminate the darkness and despair of death and loss....
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2005 : 08:49:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Shacal
Pets do not "grieve" in the human sense. Yes, when an owner dies many pets will show symptoms of distress. However, this is not because they are in a period of mourning: when an owner dies it often throws off a pets routine. Something that changes a pet's daily schedule will cause them extra stress.
Then again some pets demonstrate nothing in the way of distress when an owner dies, usually in a multi-owner household (the other one mantains its routine).
If someone wants to say that a pet is "grieving" (once again, in the human sense) they would have to give a convincing reason why it was not caused by one of these very animal-like things.
No, cats and dogs do not grieve for their own kinds. Like I said earlier, they may show distress at the disappearance of something they are used to (another animal). You can call this grief if you like, but somehow I don't think that is what you mean.
My pets? I have two cats- and they live to annoy me (but I love 'em anyway).
How is it you claim to know these things about animal emotions? My view on the matter would be that since our genetics and brains have so much in common, there is no reason not to think animals have emotions similar to humans depending on their level of development. Great apes certainly have exhibited clear evidence of emotions similar to humans. That would include suffering the pain of a loss.
Elephants have exhibited similar evidence. Whether or not mulling over bones is grieving may not be clear, but other behaviors indicate great emotional interaction among group members.
On the other hand, some animals that separate from their offspring as they reach adulthood must have some mechanism that encourages separation rather than feeling of loss.
I see no reason to think a dog or cat cannot experience sadness or loss. I see no evidence that proves it is 'routine' disruption rather than loss. The fact the presence of other group members lessens the loss cannot prove the routine is more important than the emotion. The same support groups help humans lessen the sadness of loss as well.
I'd have to see a big well done study to believe conclusions could be drawn about the disruption of routine vs the emotion of loss was what one observed in pets whose owners die or leave.
My brother's cat has been moved into a third house in as many months and doesn't seem to mind. Not convincing evidence but it does show one can disrupt a pet's routine without loss and see what happens.
We had a dog as a kid that was given to us by my uncle at one year of age. Despite the fact the dog barked at all men and especially all people in uniform, she always recognized my uncle from a long distance while he didn't visit often, and he wore his police uniform. This was consistent over many years. (The dog did not bark at girls or women unless they had on uniform type clothes. Whatever it was that the dog was using to tell the difference we weren't sure, but before any of you skeptics ask, I can say with certainty this behavior was very consistent as well, and it did not depend on our cues because the dog was often the first to see the visitors.)
I don't think cats are as well known for recognizing their offspring after they've been separated. I can't say I've heard one way or the other if dogs recognize their siblings or offspring after separation. I'm curious now that I think about it, though. |
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Shacal
Skeptic Friend
USA
51 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2005 : 09:52:09 [Permalink]
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Beskeptigal, If my last post was confusing, maybe it would help if you knew I was responding this question of Storm's in particular:
quote:
Do our pets really Grieve the loss of a companion like you or I?
I did not mean to suggest that routine disruption was the only cause of actions in pets that resemble grieving. Certainly they could become very bonded to a particular human, and seperation could cause distress.
Note, however, that I carefully said they only do not grieve in the human sense of the word. I never said animals don't have emotions, only that the actions they manifest that resemble "grieving" are different than those expressed by humans. |
"The problem with communication is the illusion that we have accomplished it" |
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questionit
New Member
21 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2005 : 19:26:41 [Permalink]
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Mammalian pets absolutely grieve.
No one is claiming that any animal on Earth is as intelligent as us, but we don't hold the monopoly on emotions. I had two cats, and one died at the vet's. For two weeks afterwards whenever I would come home, the remaining cat would cry. I don't mean tears. I mean look at me at meow to me incessantly with a definite plaintive note, as if to say, "I know you have my friend. Where is she?"
And studies with chimps have shown those creatures grieve. But then, they're closer to us than anything. |
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