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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
 Posted - 01/13/2005 : 06:51:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Ladies and gentlemen, I fear we've crossed the line, here. While verlch doesn't agree with us and often makes outrageous statements, he doesn't deserve this sort of treatment.
I see your point, filthy. I have long admired your patient attempts to maintain polite, ethical treatment of everyone in this forum. Maybe I lack perspective because I like the song so much, but it doesn't read as libelous to me. It actually seems to be a fairly accurate, if catchy, list of verlch's beliefs as I understand them.
I don't post on any creationist sites, but if I did and inspired someone to write a song like this one, I honestly think I'd feel honored.
I guess the real question is what does verlch think?
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Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2005 : 07:39:26 [Permalink]
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I agree that this is not a personal attack per se, but it is unprovoked ridicule of the sort that might be found on any school yard during recess. Thus, verlch has the higher moral ground, here.
Ya know, I've probably roughed verlch up more than anyone; enough that I've felt compelled to apologize for it, now and again. But one thing I've noticed about him: he has never attacked me personally. In fact, I can't remember him ever attacking anyone thus. And his ridicule of the ToE and so forth has always been pretty much of a blanket sort of thing, never sent toward an individual.
I think that the song, while humoruous, is most unfair to verlch.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2005 : 08:16:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
But one thing I've noticed about him: he has never attacked me personally.
He only attacks personally women that are smarter than him. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2005 : 08:24:19 [Permalink]
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So THAT'S why he's never attacked me personally!  (I really don't think he ever has.  )
Seriously, I hope verlch will post an opinion. If he feels he has been ill-used I'll still like the song, but I'll apologize for picking on him.
Edited to add: Is it really unprovoked?
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Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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| Edited by - Wendy on 01/13/2005 08:28:17 |
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tkster
Skeptic Friend
USA
193 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2005 : 08:24:53 [Permalink]
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Haha, my dad is a Creationist and I am sure he would enjoy that.
tk |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2005 : 09:24:51 [Permalink]
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Yeah I read it with his feelings in mind, and from what I know of his opinion I dont think he would disagree with anything in the song, there are no direct insults only the implied one of the writer not believing the same thing, which is fine IMO.
Of course that doesnt mean he wouldnt be offended, but he might also put the song on his answering machine. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2005 : 10:01:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Doesn't anyone feel a little uncomfortable with this thread?
It looks to me like an ad hom ridiculing and indeed, an attack on a member of these fora, and something you might find at one of the more confused creationist sites.
As the administrators and moderators know, I am no fan of ad hominem attacks. And I don't believe I have sunk to the level of using one now. What I did was a very gentle (in my opinion) parody that distills the thinking of a certain kind of creationist in general. On our boards, that happens to be Verlch. I did not go for the jugular. In fact, in my thoughts when writing the song was the idea that a site like Hovind's might actually see it as a poke against evolutionists and an affirmation of their beliefs. I never intended to beat Verlch up. And I don't think I have.
quote:
Filthy:
Ladies and gentlemen, I fear we've crossed the line, here. While verlch doesn't agree with us and often makes outrageous statements, he doesn't deserve this sort of treatment.
All I can say to this is go look over the threads that Verlch has been a part of, or central to and check out some of the responses to his comments. My song is not in response to any comment in particular, it is a response to his comments about evolution and creation as a whole. As such, I am a piker when compared to much of what has been dished out in his direction. I can only tell you, Filthy, that I am not mean spirited. Again, my intent was to poke some gentle fun in the direction of Verlch's brand of creationism. I challenge you to show me the verse that attacks Verlch on a personal level.
I could always change the name of the song. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2005 : 10:21:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Doesn't anyone feel a little uncomfortable with this thread?
It looks to me like an ad hom ridiculing and indeed, an attack on a member of these fora, and something you might find at one of the more confused creationist sites.
As the administrators and moderators know, I am no fan of ad hominem attacks. And I don't believe I have sunk to the level of using one now. What I did was a very gentle (in my opinion) parody that distills the thinking of a certain kind of creationist in general. On our boards, that happens to be Verlch. I did not go for the jugular. In fact, in my thoughts when writing the song was the idea that a site like Hovind's might actually see it as a poke against evolutionists and an affirmation of their beliefs. I never intended to beat Verlch up. And I don't think I have.
quote:
Filthy:
Ladies and gentlemen, I fear we've crossed the line, here. While verlch doesn't agree with us and often makes outrageous statements, he doesn't deserve this sort of treatment.
All I can say to this is go look over the threads that Verlch has been a part of, or central to and check out some of the responses to his comments. My song is not in response to any comment in particular, it is a response to his comments about evolution and creation as a whole. As such, I am a piker when compared to much of what has been dished out in his direction. I can only tell you, Filthy, that I am not mean spirited. Again, my intent was to poke some gentle fun in the direction of Verlch's brand of creationism. I challenge you to show me the verse that attacks Verlch on a personal level.
As I mentioned earlier, it was not a personal attack per se. I found it to be almost like school yard teasing, and therefore inappropriate.
This is a sore point with me as I was subjected to it as a child, if briefly. I will tell the story, if asked.
However, I fully understand your intent, and it was a funny song; I just think it was ill advised.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Paulos23
Skeptic Friend
USA
446 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2005 : 10:25:38 [Permalink]
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From my friend's desk here, I agree with filthy.
Ridicule isn't okay, no matter how "gentle" or well-intended.
Renae
P.S. As the kid that got teased on the play ground, I agree. - Paulos |
You can go wrong by being too skeptical as readily as by being too trusting. -- Robert A. Heinlein
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2005 : 10:32:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Filthy:
However, I fully understand your intent, and it was a funny song; I just think it was ill advised.
I'm sorry you feel that way because I respect your opinion. Oh well... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2005 : 11:11:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Renae
... I agree with filthy.
Ridicule isn't okay, no matter how "gentle" or well-intended.
Renae
P.S. As the kid that got teased on the play ground, I agree. - Paulos
I agree. I just don't think I was ridiculing Verlch. It was satire folks. And it is not a satire on Verlch in particular. I was poking fun at a particular brand of creationist that Verlch just happens be one of. If you take the position that satire is ridicule I stand guilty as charged. If I had generalized the title, would it bother you that I was “ridiculing” creationists? Or would you see it as a satire?
Edited to add: I am now done defending this. I guess we will have to agree to disagree…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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way
New Member
USA
35 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2005 : 12:41:44 [Permalink]
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I'll be a fence-sitter. I can see the points made from both sides. However, having just read the thing 10 minutes ago I'll state my first impressions...
-Kil has way too much time on his hands
-Funny
-Clever
-I wonder what verlch's reaction will be
Definitely satirical with the title giving it an "edge" with this audience.
Now, if the CD ever comes together, I'd like to add the sax solo in the middle. |
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woolytoad
Skeptic Friend
313 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2005 : 14:03:40 [Permalink]
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I was thinking the same thing as filthy. It's a pretty funny song. It may not be about verlch specifically, but it's pretty hard to tell. It is named after him  . The mods should change the title of the thread and song to something more general if we want to keep it. |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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dv82matt
SFN Regular
760 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2005 : 23:09:04 [Permalink]
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Well I don't know verlch too well, but I've read some of his previous threads and I'm rather inclined to think that if he wasn't already feeling bullied then this wouldn't push him over the edge. No harm no foul so to speak.
Of course we should keep in mind that verlch is in the minority (and thus has few advocates willing to speak for him) and that satire is an inherently unfair (although often humerous) form of critisism.
Personally, I found Kil's parody to be quite funny and not mean spirited in any way. I don't really see a need to change it.
If verlch does object, for whatever reason, then I would say that the title should be changed.
Well that's my two cents worth. |
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