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Siberia
SFN Addict

Brazil
2322 Posts

Posted - 01/18/2005 :  06:23:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Siberia's Homepage  Send Siberia an AOL message  Send Siberia a Yahoo! Message Send Siberia a Private Message
Well. When I went to hospital for my recent surgery, one of the questions they asked me (to fill my entry in their database, I suppose), was my religion... so, that would be why? So they know which attitude to have in case of an emergency? Or just another field to be filled?

"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa

"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Plyss
Skeptic Friend

Netherlands
231 Posts

Posted - 01/18/2005 :  08:05:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Plyss a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by satans_mom

quote:

Just out of sheer curiosity, what would be a 'physical handicap of serious degree'?



That would be a difficult situation to decide. I believe as long as the mind works, the person is capable of doing great things for society. All I can say now is, "I don't know for sure."



A difficult question indeed. I did some background research for another thread regarding euthanasia on newly born children. Although specific information is difficult to acquire due to privacy policies some journalists came up with one instance of a little girl born without the ability to make skin tissue. The effect of this was that she had to be wrapped in bandages everyday and kept under constant sedation and antibiotics until at some point either the tolerance to painkillers had built up to such a degree that an effective dose could lead to death or an infection that couldn't be treated would kill her or bloodloss through ruptured bloodvessels would do the same.

This is apparently one of the instances in which the Groningen Academic Hospital administered a lethal dose of sedatives to a baby, although the doctors neither confirm nor deny this[1].

Anyway, i can imagine in such extreme cases one would decide not to invest in keeping a patient alive.
As for a mental disability, i can't come up with a realistic scenario in which i would consider a person unworthy of life to such an extent that treatment or care should be withdrawn.


[1] A national TV program broadcasted an interview with an RC priest accusing the parents and the medical staff of murder. His implicit suggestion was that they should have dealt with the matter by withholding treatment of any sort until death followed by natural causes.
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 01/18/2005 :  08:20:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo

There are no psychological needs for superstition.



For most people, there are needs for mysticism and ceremony. That you do not have such needs explains why you don't understand it. Again, pissing people off is no way to gain the patient's trust.

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 01/18/2005 :  08:26:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo

Angry people are angry people. Doesn't matter much what I say. I'm not saying that doctors should tell people they're stupid, or act like they're stupid. I knew a woman who was pissed off because a doctor suggested she lose some weight. Do you think he stopped telling people that staying in good shape is a good way to remain healthy?

Religion is not good mental health. It's best if people lose the need for it. Should doctors stop recommending good health because some people are angry people?



Such is your opinion. Can you point to any debilitating aspect of religion as a whole which is bad? I'm comfortable in my religion and it doesn't affect my mental processes in the matter of logic, science, or evidenciary rules. It may give me a different emotional experience when viewing nature, but the appreciation for the beauty of it is similar to others.

Take any philosophy too far, and it can be bad.

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 01/18/2005 :  08:32:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Siberia

Well. When I went to hospital for my recent surgery, one of the questions they asked me (to fill my entry in their database, I suppose), was my religion... so, that would be why? So they know which attitude to have in case of an emergency? Or just another field to be filled?



This actually does have some applicability to hospital stays. It fulfills the following functions.

1) Identifies what basic restrictions on care is preferred by the patient.
2) Mobilizes (or suppresses) visits by the correct faith hospital chaplain to bolster patient morale.
3) In case of inpatient expiration, mobilizes appropriate faith chaplain to give appropriate death ceremony. (last rites, etc)
4) The field is optional and geared toward providing the best patient experience for deeply religious people. (They tend to bitch the loudest when access to an appropriate clergy member is delayed)


Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 01/18/2005 :  09:27:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
There may be needs for ceremony, but there is no need for superstition. No need for cigarettes. No need to overeat. No need for hallucinogenics. None.

quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Gorgo

There are no psychological needs for superstition.



For most people, there are needs for mysticism and ceremony. That you do not have such needs explains why you don't understand it. Again, pissing people off is no way to gain the patient's trust.
[/quote]

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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Siberia
SFN Addict

Brazil
2322 Posts

Posted - 01/18/2005 :  10:00:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Siberia's Homepage  Send Siberia an AOL message  Send Siberia a Yahoo! Message Send Siberia a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer

quote:
Originally posted by Siberia

Well. When I went to hospital for my recent surgery, one of the questions they asked me (to fill my entry in their database, I suppose), was my religion... so, that would be why? So they know which attitude to have in case of an emergency? Or just another field to be filled?



This actually does have some applicability to hospital stays. It fulfills the following functions.

1) Identifies what basic restrictions on care is preferred by the patient.
2) Mobilizes (or suppresses) visits by the correct faith hospital chaplain to bolster patient morale.
3) In case of inpatient expiration, mobilizes appropriate faith chaplain to give appropriate death ceremony. (last rites, etc)
4) The field is optional and geared toward providing the best patient experience for deeply religious people. (They tend to bitch the loudest when access to an appropriate clergy member is delayed)



Ah, gotcha. Well, it was a catholic hospital anyway, chapel and everything - so it kinda of justifies it.

"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa

"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 01/18/2005 :  10:14:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
I think Ellis's thinking is less than perfect, but here's one person's view as to why religion is harmful. My own opinion is that such beliefs come from a core belief in a lack of self-worth. For example, this life (my life) is not enough, so it must be that it goes on forever.

http://www.geocities.com/bororissa/rel.html

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 01/18/2005 :  12:04:54   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo

I think Ellis's thinking is less than perfect, but here's one person's view as to why religion is harmful. My own opinion is that such beliefs come from a core belief in a lack of self-worth. For example, this life (my life) is not enough, so it must be that it goes on forever.

http://www.geocities.com/bororissa/rel.html



Ellis applies rash generalization. He is applying the qualities of lockstep radical evangelism to the behaviors of all religions. While I respect your opinion, I disagree with it. There are other causes for religion which do not center around a lack of self worth. Several issues:

1) Since time immemorial, man has wondered about death. Some have believed in an afterlife to deal with the finality of death and the uncertainty of what happens after. In this case, religion is a coping mechanism to a phychologically troubling uncertainty.

2) Ellis has a set of things which he feels is advantageous to good mental health and then pulls examples from the most extreme factions of religion to bolster an arguement that religion works counter to it. Several of the points have no bearing within religion what-so-ever. Some are tangently related to it, but religion rarely acts as a whole against these interests. The one which religion most touches on is acceptance of uncertainties. Since only one aspect (relation to death) is affected, the impact is minimal.

3) Religion is a coping mechanism to deal with death and contains a system to transmit societal norms to offspring. While religion is not required to do the latter, it is a tool which can be employed for this purpose.

4) Ellis calls religion a form of mascochism. He mistakes ceremony and marking of religious holidays through depravation or fasting (which is not universal) as mascochism. Again, rash generalization.

5) Ellis equates religion to fanaticism. Again, rash generalization.


Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 01/18/2005 :  12:08:37   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo

There may be needs for ceremony, but there is no need for superstition. No need for cigarettes. No need to overeat. No need for hallucinogenics. None.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Valiant Dancer

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Gorgo

There are no psychological needs for superstition.



For most people, there are needs for mysticism and ceremony. That you do not have such needs explains why you don't understand it. Again, pissing people off is no way to gain the patient's trust.
[/quote]
[/quote]

You have equated the two. (msyticism/ceremony and superstition) This is the basis of disagreement between us.

** Tangetal point **

Even some superstitions have basis in fact.

Don't walk under a ladder. (Theater: Walk under a ladder and the guy on top may lose control of a tool and whack!)


Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 01/18/2005 :  12:55:47   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
quote:

1) Since time immemorial, man has wondered about death. Some have believed in an afterlife to deal with the finality of death and the uncertainty of what happens after. In this case, religion is a coping mechanism to a phychologically troubling uncertainty.



Smoking is a "coping mechanism," too, but we don't encourage it.


quote:

2) Ellis has a set of things which he feels is advantageous to good mental health and then pulls examples from the most extreme factions of religion to bolster an arguement that religion works counter to it. Several of the points have no bearing within religion what-so-ever. Some are tangently related to it, but religion rarely acts as a whole against these interests. The one which religion most touches on is acceptance of uncertainties. Since only one aspect (relation to death) is affected, the impact is minimal.



By "extreme" you mean if you don't really believe it, it's okay. It's like believing in god(s), but ridiculing the people that believe prayer can cure diabetes. Either you believe in god or you don't.
quote:




3) Religion is a coping mechanism to deal with death and contains a system to transmit societal norms to offspring. While religion is not required to do the latter, it is a tool which can be employed for this purpose.



Again with the "coping mechanism." It does not help anything. It only detracts from reality by opening up some ideas that are best left alone. There are no ghosts.
quote:

4) Ellis calls religion a form of mascochism. He mistakes ceremony and marking of religious holidays through depravation or fasting (which is not universal) as mascochism. Again, rash generalization.
[quote]
5) Ellis equates religion to fanaticism. Again, rash generalization.



You also have the idea of sin. You have the idea that life is not good enough as it is, you need to create a fantasy world in order to live in it. This is not healthy. Again, you speak of fanaticism, but what you are saying is that it's okay to believe in this nonsense, as long as you don't really believe it.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 01/18/2005 :  12:57:45   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
The idea that I can "piss people off" is also nonsense. People have angry beliefs, and look for ways to confirm those beliefs. They decide how and when to be "pissed off."

quote:
Again, pissing people off is no way to gain the patient's trust.


I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 01/18/2005 :  13:17:12   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
1) Since time immemorial, man has wondered about death. Some have believed in an afterlife to deal with the finality of death and the uncertainty of what happens after. In this case, religion is a coping mechanism to a phychologically troubling uncertainty.



Smoking is a "coping mechanism," too, but we don't encourage it.


Due to physical damage that occurs with it, not because of the effect of the coping mechanism itself. There is no such physical damage with religion.

quote:

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
2) Ellis has a set of things which he feels is advantageous to good mental health and then pulls examples from the most extreme factions of religion to bolster an arguement that religion works counter to it. Several of the points have no bearing within religion what-so-ever. Some are tangently related to it, but religion rarely acts as a whole against these interests. The one which religion most touches on is acceptance of uncertainties. Since only one aspect (relation to death) is affected, the impact is minimal.



By "extreme" you mean if you don't really believe it, it's okay. It's like believing in god(s), but ridiculing the people that believe prayer can cure diabetes. Either you believe in god or you don't.


The idea that prayer cures diseases is not widely held by religion. You have confused dogma with religion. Mere belief in God does not equate to belief that prayer does anything but inspire people to change themselves.

quote:

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">



3) Religion is a coping mechanism to deal with death and contains a system to transmit societal norms to offspring. While religion is not required to do the latter, it is a tool which can be employed for this purpose.



Again with the "coping mechanism." It does not help anything. It only detracts from reality by opening up some ideas that are best left alone. There are no ghosts.[/quote]

Ghosts are not a requirement for an afterlife. The coping mechanism defers the severe psychological distress attributable to the unknown concerning death. Coping mechanisms do not detract from reality as a whole. And in this case, it is such a minor area that it is meaningless. We all have coping mechanisms of one kind or another. Degree and scope matters.

quote:

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
4) Ellis calls religion a form of mascochism. He mistakes ceremony and marking of religious holidays through depravation or fasting (which is not universal) as mascochism. Again, rash generalization.
quote:

5) Ellis equates religion to fanaticism. Again, rash generalization.
[/quote]

You also have the idea of sin. You have the idea that life is not good enough as it is, you need to create a fantasy world in order to live in it. This is not healthy. Again, you speak of fanaticism, but what you are saying is that it's okay to believe in this nonsense, as long as you don't really believe it.
[/quote]

No, Gorgo. "Sins" are societal norms which are violated. The same feeling that we have failed in adhering to societal norms and we need to do better is present in atheists as well as theists. What I have said is that it is ok to believe in a God as long as you do not allow dogma which demands that God is an ever active force in nature. To you, religion is nonsense. One man's philosophy is another man's belly laugh. To you, religion is that belly laugh. I think you attribute a disconnect from all reality with religion. This, like Ellis, is a rash generalization.

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
Edited by - Valiant Dancer on 01/18/2005 13:23:38
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 01/18/2005 :  13:19:58   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo

The idea that I can "piss people off" is also nonsense. People have angry beliefs, and look for ways to confirm those beliefs. They decide how and when to be "pissed off."

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Again, pissing people off is no way to gain the patient's trust.


[/quote]

Religion is a highly emotional subject, attacking this in the realm of patient care is counter-productive. By attacking it, you have chosen to engage someone on an emotional level. Therefore, you can piss people off.

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 01/18/2005 :  13:37:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
Again, my doctor told me that if I lose weight, I can get my blood pressure and my cholesterol down. He was not "attacking" me, he was letting me know that I would be healthier if I lose the "need" for overeating. I didn't get "pissed off." Some people do. Should he stop doing that because some people get pissed off?

If I tell you that you will be mentally healthier if you accept yourself and your world and lose the need to create fantasies will you be pissed off? Should I stop because you're pissed off? Did I call you an idiot? You can refuse the advice just like some people refuse the advice to moderate eating or smoking.

Most people don't seem to be harmed by religion much because they really don't believe it. They don't believe in "God," that is, an omnipotent, omniscient ruler of the Universe. They just have some vague notion that there "must be" something. Well, guess what? You don't need those kinds of ideas. In fact, we're all better off without them.

Superstition is not neutral. It certainly is not positive. Ellis does not spell that out very well, I agree. However, such beliefs are grounded in fear. Those fearful beliefs are the filters through which we look at our world. They are our "pissed off" beliefs. It is not the world that pisses us off, but our beliefs about ourselves. We think we are not enough as we are, so we attempt to emotionally force the world into something that it isn't. Religion adds to that, it doesn't help anyone.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



Edited by - Gorgo on 01/18/2005 13:40:46
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