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Rubicon95
Skeptic Friend
USA
220 Posts |
 Posted - 01/19/2005 : 12:21:48 [Permalink]
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Never said it was a miracle cure and no where in my post did I say that.
That was all YOU. Those were your words and thoughts not mine. You read too much into it.
I only pointed out that they are beneficial, and tried to show some backing of my claim.
No Harm no Foul |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2005 : 12:36:08 [Permalink]
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I haven't read the Duke article yet, but the Mayo article made no such claims.
The Duke web site seems a little to gushing to be credible. I'll see if I can check it out later.
I do appreciate the input here. It is valuable to me even though sometimes it may not read that way. Sometimes I see things that don't exist just like everyone else. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Rubicon95
Skeptic Friend
USA
220 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2005 : 12:49:56 [Permalink]
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Do a search for the trial by Dr. Stephen L Kopecky. I am still trying to find it. It was a PDF. You'll find alot of sites using the trial to debunk intercessary prayer. However those site don't point out its findings on meditative prayer.
Heck I am guilty of that stuff. Seeing what I want to see but not what really is.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2005 : 13:07:33 [Permalink]
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Is this it?
http://www.acfaith.com/mayo.pdf |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2005 : 13:11:47 [Permalink]
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Irony is great, I have tried for most of my life to walk a path divergent from these types. Yet I now hold the belief that medicine in general does more harm than good (by promoting overpopulation) strange how I have reached the same conclusions with such a different philosophy.
Dont want to debate my beliefs, just say I'm for the extreme reduction of the entire population. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2005 : 13:15:28 [Permalink]
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| A path divergent from what types? Edited to say, Duh. Oh. Those types that the thread is actually about. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 01/19/2005 13:16:25 |
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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2005 : 13:59:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
My posting of the other web site was to rebut your idea that prayer is a miracle cure, nothing else.
I want to simply point out that I do not support prayer as a miracle cure, or any type of cure for that matter.
My position is simply that people are entitled to their faith, however misguided others may think it to be, and if no one is harmed, or if they are consenting adults and only they themselves are harmed, then a physician should duly inform them and back off. |
Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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Rubicon95
Skeptic Friend
USA
220 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2005 : 14:16:31 [Permalink]
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Bingo Thanks Gorgo
Now here's something to really screw you up.
I do agree that religion and superstitions has the potential to be and has been detrimental to mental health. (Sorry Gorgo if I piss you off).
Martin Luther was an example of how religion can be detrimental. It was drilled into him that God was a an angry and vengeful master. Eager to punish him for any sin committed and not confessed. He wound up confessing sins a couple of times a day to the abbot. (HEY ABBBBBBOTTTT! I'm a bad boy) He became paralyzed mentally. Until he rejected the belief imposed on him or had a nervous breakdown. He then was able to function and used his mind to reform the Catholic Church but wound up splitting it. In the end, he became a rabid anti-semite.
Gutauma Siddartha , the Buddha, raised to be a prince, spurned his wealth and luxuries to pursue the end of suffering. So, according to legend, he fasted for a very long time, some religious or spiritual practice. Perhaps he was becoming a Jainist. He wound up with either a psychotic break or a realization that punishing himself was not the answer.
Who can forget the Halle-Bopp comet cult? Or Rev Jim Jones? Suicide Bombers? Snake cult handlers of Appalachia?
If using rosary beads helps reduce your blood pressure, great. I doubt it could help you by restoring your ability to walk if your spine is broken. It may be a lack of faith on my part. I do believe that perhaps one way faith heals is having you come to grips with your situation.
This thread reminds me of joke.
There was a flood in town. The highest point was the church. The flood waters kept rising and the Pastor prayed for deliverance.
His neighbor shows up in a car, “time to go Pastor”
“Don't bother,” said the Pastor, “God will deliver me”
2 hours later the water is up to the roof. The Pastor prayed for deliverance.
So the Sheriff shows up in a boat, “time to go Pastor”
“Don't bother,” said the Pastor, “God will deliver me”
4 hours later the Pastor is hanging for life on the steeple . The flood waters are rising still and he prays for deliverance.
A National Guard Helicopter shows up. , “time to go Pastor”
“Don't bother,” said the Pastor, “God will deliver me”
Well the Pastor drowns and goes before God.
“I prayed to you and you did not deliver me. You let me drown”
God says, “You idiot, I sent you a car and a boat and helicopter. What more did you want.”
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2005 : 14:21:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Wendy
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
My posting of the other web site was to rebut your idea that prayer is a miracle cure, nothing else.
I want to simply point out that I do not support prayer as a miracle cure, or any type of cure for that matter.
My position is simply that people are entitled to their faith, however misguided others may think it to be, and if no one is harmed, or if they are consenting adults and only they themselves are harmed, then a physician should duly inform them and back off.
Do we have any obligation to correct mis-information or is it all assumed to be faith?
Examples:
Belief polio vaccine was tainted to make Muslim women sterile.
Belief antiretroviral meds cause AIDS and HIV doesn't.
Belief research supports prayer heals when no such evidence exists.
If you add religion to the mix then is misinformation to be ignored? What if the misinformation comes from a leader like Jim Jones?
It can't always be boiled down to consenting adult only harming one's self.
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2005 : 14:27:06 [Permalink]
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| Added: I have read many studies that purported to show prayer had an effect on health outcomes. None of the studies I could find, and I looked at many, had any evidence of the benefit of prayer other than some showing the psychological support of the 'group' had a small positive effect. None of the blinded studies showed any impact. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2005 : 14:49:32 [Permalink]
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| My guess is that the study that shows that "meditative" prayer helps means that when people relax and have a better outlook, they tend to say that they feel better. There is some placebo benefit, I'm sure, but with that there may be negative placebo problems if they believe they've sinned, as an example. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2005 : 06:24:13 [Permalink]
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What I said is, "And Valiant, no, people who believe that prayer heals are not idiots. Neither are people who feel they must wash their hands until they bleed, or believe that they "need" a cigarette. That does not mean that there is not something very wrong with their thinking."
I stand by that. Believing that prayer and hokum heals is dangerous, and we've seen that too many times.
Reality may be insulting to some people, but it is still reality.
quote:
Your equation of obsessive compulsive disorder and addiction to religion is insulting and inaccurate. I expected better of you. As long as religion can be compartmentalized into fulfilling the psychological needs the person has for mysticism and ceremony and does not interfere with logical functioning, it really isn't that bad.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2005 : 06:25:33 [Permalink]
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I stand by my original statement. There are no "needs" for superstition.
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Gorgo
There are no psychological needs for superstition.
For most people, there are needs for mysticism and ceremony. That you do not have such needs explains why you don't understand it. Again, pissing people off is no way to gain the patient's trust.
[/quote] |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2005 : 08:31:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
Do we have any obligation to correct mis-information or is it all assumed to be faith?
At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I think Dude's post (emphasis mine) addressed this early on:
quote:
Originally posted by Dude
1. Advise the patient of the best treatment.
2. If they have an objection, based on religion (or based on anything really), explain clearly what the risks are of refusing treatment. (Jehova's Witnesses refuse organ transplants and blood transfusions, for example)
3. Treat the patient as best you can while allowing for their personal choices.
4. Reiterate the risks invloved in not accepting reccomended treatments.
I personally think this would extend to an attempt to dispel misinformation (such as tainted vaccine) when possible. Explain why it's the best treatment.
If God exists as set out in the Bible, He is every bit as monstrous as Jim Jones. People still have the right to their beliefs when they harm no one, or when they harm only themselves.
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
I stand by my original statement. There are no "needs" for superstition.
I've got no problem with that statement. It was this one:
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Religion adds to that, it doesn't help anyone.
that in my opinion was too absolute, and therefore troubling.
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Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2005 : 08:41:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
What I said is, "And Valiant, no, people who believe that prayer heals are not idiots. Neither are people who feel they must wash their hands until they bleed, or believe that they "need" a cigarette. That does not mean that there is not something very wrong with their thinking."
I stand by that. Believing that prayer and hokum heals is dangerous, and we've seen that too many times.
Reality may be insulting to some people, but it is still reality.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Your equation of obsessive compulsive disorder and addiction to religion is insulting and inaccurate. I expected better of you. As long as religion can be compartmentalized into fulfilling the psychological needs the person has for mysticism and ceremony and does not interfere with logical functioning, it really isn't that bad.
[/quote]
And your insistance that religions believe that prayer heals is misplaced. Prayer serves specific purposes such as communication (whether real or imagined) with the divine, a ceremony to focus the mind on the task of personal growth, or a ceremony to focus the mind on having a positive attitude. (The whole positive attitude aspect has a side benefit not attributable directly to prayer)
That is a reality that you fail to recognize and continue to rashly generalize "prayer heals" to all religions and subsects. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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