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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
 Posted - 01/31/2005 : 16:26:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
Siberia wrote:
Well. I'd say it's pretty much unlikely that I'll ever crap out a car (but wouldn't that be cool?), UNLESS we were living in an illusion, like SP claims that we are, and everything we know is false.
I don't know how cool it would be, but I bet it would hurt like hell.
Strictly speaking, you could say anything that is not self contradictory (like the watermelon banana), or does not contracict already known laws of nature, is possible. However many such "possible" things are so unlikely that it would be unreasonable to accept them as real possibilities. While impossible things may make for interesting bong-side conversation, giving them serious consideration is pretty much a waste of time. |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2005 : 17:35:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
The fact remains that you can not say this possibility is impossible, however bad it may seem.
Utter nonsense. I know for an absolute fact it is impossible to shit out an SUV. So do you.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Isaiah
Skeptic Friend
USA
83 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2005 : 18:15:24 [Permalink]
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So, Ricky, I do have a real question for you, though it may be more linguistically-based than critically-based. What word would you use to describe the realm of possibility that the act of crapping out an SUV takes? Giving it the word "improbable" seems a little weak, and "extremely improbable" still doesn't seem to capture the small possibility that an omnipotent god for unfathomable reasons needs human-excreted SUVs.
So, given your banishment of the word impossible from your vocabulary, how do you describe what many people here would use the word "impossible" to describe? |
For Real Things I Know - http://solomonj.blogspot.com
"My point is, that you cannot use lack of evidence for one possibility as proof for another." - Dude
“I would rather delude myself with comforting fantasies than face a cold reality” - Isaiah, altered from astropin |
| Edited by - Isaiah on 01/31/2005 18:18:00 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2005 : 19:50:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
Dave, your fruit example, (going off the deep end here..) if there was a Universe where objects could hold multiple properties, then it becomes possible to have a banana that is an apple. Seemingly inconceivable? Perhaps. But impossible?
If we lived in such a universe, you might have a point. But we've got no evidence of other universes, or even Matrix worlds.
Be that as it may, I submit that it is impossible for me as I am at this moment to strip naked and jump under my own power to a height of over 1,000 meters and then land (again without assistance) without harming myself in any way. I can say this with assurance because I've just tested it, and didn't come close to bonking my head on the ceiling.
It's also impossible for me - right now - to poop out even a tricycle, as I have not consumed nearly enough iron or plastic to get a good start. Plus, I just went.
Years ago, Scientific American ran an article on truly huge and truly tiny numbers. For two of the examples of tiny numbers, the author claimed that people had actually worked out the probability of (A) a mouse living on the Sun for a week, and (B) all of a person's atoms suddenly being teleported to Mars. The calculations, if I'm not mistaken, worked out to 10-50 and 10-60, respectively. Extraordinarily highly improbable, but still possible, they claimed.
And interestingly enough, it's more likely that a mouse could live on the Sun for a week than it is that a person will suddenly be whisked off to Mars. Go figure that... |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2005 : 10:14:05 [Permalink]
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Well when you consider that we know how to inhibit heat equal to the surface temperature of the sun and do not know anything about teleportation of matter, makes sense to me. [We know how to teleport the quantum state of a particle but not the particle itself, let alone ten to the 24th power particles, which must then be rearranged exactly.]
Really there are two camps on this issue and no way around it.
Those who dismiss sophilism and those who dont.
If you accept sophilism as possible than nothing is impossible.
If you dismiss sophilism than by definition at least one thing must be impossible.
Thats it pick a side.
Personally I think sophilism is possible, but until one is proven true thinking about them is pretty much a waste of time. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
| Edited by - BigPapaSmurf on 02/01/2005 10:14:53 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2005 : 11:36:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
If there is a god who is all powerful, then it is very possible to change the laws of physics. Or the laws of physics might not even exist, you could be living in a false world. Or we could be completely wrong about the laws of physics.
It's all about evidence.
Sure, if you want to run around the world of speculation, then it is not impossible to SPECULATE about anything.
You find some evidence for god, or alternate universes, or demonstrate that the observed laws of physics and matter and energy are different from what we think they are, and then get back to me on this subject.
Claim: It is impossible for a human to shit out an SUV.
Evidence: The accumulated knowledge of anatomy, physiology, biology, and biochemistry.
1. Such an event has never been observed.
2. Current knowledge of the human body's function directly contradicts the idea that a human body is capable of either ingesting or producing refined metals, plastics, cloth fibers, leather, and sophisticated electronics. Let alone in the quantity needed to shit out an SUV.
THEREFORE: Something IS indeed impossible.
THEREFORE: The claim that "nothing is impossible" is false.
And seriously, it is not rude of me to tell you that you also know this.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2005 : 12:16:35 [Permalink]
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I live within the constraints of physical laws. We all do in fact. So when we start discussing what is possible and what is not I must look at what is possible within the constraints of physical laws.
Is it possible for a mouse to exist on the surface of the sun? No, it is impossible. 0% possiblity. I know the surface temperature of the sun. I know the temperature at which water boils and the temperature at which flesh burns or breaks down. It is absurd to postulate another universe or God or the ghost of a gay Abraham Lincoln intervening. It is impossible within the physical laws of our universe.
I know that people have said that something is impossible which was later shown to be possible. Such things as people flying should never have been considered impossible. Birds which are heavier than air can fly - so it was just a matter of time before we could figure out how to fly. It is impossible though, for me to flap my arms fast enough to fly. Physics tells us that.
To even duscuss the possiblity of an automobile somehow forming inside of a person and then to have that auto pass through the sphincter of the person, makes you sound silly. Does it really need to be stated that it is impossible? Well it is; 0% probability, not gonna happen.
I am afraid this discussion has as much merit as discussing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
(by the way it is 19)
I know that I went way out on a limb here stating these things are impossible, but I am just an incredibly daring kinda guy.
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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astropin
SFN Regular
USA
970 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2005 : 12:24:54 [Permalink]
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So Dude, would it suffice to say that:
It's impossible until evidence shows otherwise.
Does that contradict the definition of impossible? I would argue that it does not. Impossible is just a word we use to describe something we "believe" can not exist or occur. We however, are fallible. Concluding that something is impossible would only be incorrect if new evidence contradicts the original conclusion.
For me, anything that contradicts the known laws of physics is impossible.
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I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.
You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.
Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.
Infinitus est numerus stultorum |
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astropin
SFN Regular
USA
970 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2005 : 12:34:25 [Permalink]
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A few things that are on my impossible list:
1)The existance of an omnipotant being
2)That the laws of physics can change
3)That the laws of physics do not exist
4)That we all live in a false world
5)Thst the laws of physics are completely wrong
6)That there is life after death
7)That I can crap out a Lincoln Navigator |
I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.
You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.
Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.
Infinitus est numerus stultorum |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2005 : 13:26:28 [Permalink]
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I can honestly say that, until observed and analyzed to weed out outside influence or trickery, there are some things that are impossible.
The idea that a human can excrete a fully functional automobile is impossible given what we know about the functioning of humans in general and the space constraints of a full size automobile.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2005 : 14:31:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
So Dude, would it suffice to say that:
It's impossible until evidence shows otherwise.
Not exactly.
Certain things are precluded by know facts. Lets use a different example than shitting out an SUV.
Temperature.
Lets look at absolute zero (zero degrees Kelvin).
We have never, quite, experimentaly observed this temp(in 1995 BEC was obsevred at a temp something close to a millionth of a degree above absolute zero), but we know certain things about what happens when it is reached. At absolute zero all atomic and moluecular oscillation is slowed to the slowest point that it can possibly be slowed to.
It is impossible to cool anything below absolute zero.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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dv82matt
SFN Regular
760 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2005 : 22:30:54 [Permalink]
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If we grant basic logic then some things are impossible. You cannot simultainously have both 'tea' and 'no tea'. You cannot have a single object that is both a 'banana' and a 'watermellon'.
As Ricky said:
quote:
I have changed my position to nothing is impossible as long as it does not go against a given premise:
A = B
Show A does not = B
The premise directly contradicts the conclusion, and it is therefore, by definition, impossible.
quote:
Originally posted by Dude
It is impossible to cool anything below absolute zero.
Given the definition of temperature, the idea that something could be colder than absolute zero contradicts the premise.
Are some things that are not logically contradictory impossible?
What about the laws of therodynamics, aren't they largely based on probabilities? Wouldn't large scale violations of the laws of therodynamics be impossible? Or would it merely be extremely improbable?
What about quantum mechanics?
Dave said:
quote:
Years ago, Scientific American ran an article on truly huge and truly tiny numbers. For two of the examples of tiny numbers, the author claimed that people had actually worked out the probability of (A) a mouse living on the Sun for a week, and (B) all of a person's atoms suddenly being teleported to Mars. The calculations, if I'm not mistaken, worked out to 10-50 and 10-60, respectively. Extraordinarily highly improbable, but still possible, they claimed.
And interestingly enough, it's more likely that a mouse could live on the Sun for a week than it is that a person will suddenly be whisked off to Mars. Go figure that...
I think this is based on the possibility of quantum effects manifesting themselves on a macroscopic scale. In practical terms this is impossible, but is it absolutely impossible? |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2005 : 07:06:47 [Permalink]
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I thought we were all into the falsafiability gig, thus making nothing impossible.
Anyway I love how we latched onto the vehicle excretion as our universal example, hilarious.
Is it safe to say, It is impossible to excrete a fully functional vehicle(EFFV)without unknown extra-unversal intervention.? Covers both impossible and the improbable. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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