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 Do we see before we believe or vice-versa?
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Isaiah
Skeptic Friend

USA
83 Posts

Posted - 01/31/2005 :  16:05:42  Show Profile  Visit Isaiah's Homepage Send Isaiah a Private Message
This article makes me wonder how much our preconceptions rule what our brain tells us we see?

http://www.newscientist.com/channel/being-human/mg18524841.700
quote:
The painter is Esref Armagan. And he is here in Boston to see if a peek inside his brain can explain how a man who has never seen can paint pictures that the sighted easily recognise - and even admire. He paints houses and mountains and lakes and faces and butterflies, but he's never seen any of these things. He depicts colour, shadow and perspective, but it is not clear how he could have witnessed these things either. How does he do it?
...
Armagan was born 51 years ago in one of Istanbul's poorer neighbourhoods. One of his eyes failed to develop beyond a rudimentary bud, the other is stunted and scarred. It is impossible to know if he had some vision as an infant, but he certainly never saw normally and his brain detects no light now.
...
His paintings are disarmingly realistic. And his skills are formidable. "I have tested blind people for decades," says John Kennedy, a psychologist at the University of Toronto, "and I have never seen a performance like his."
...
Kennedy put Armagan through a battery of tests. For instance, he presented him with solid objects that he could feel - a cube, a cone and a ball all in a row (dubbed the "three mountains task") - and asked him to draw them. He then asked him to draw them as though he was perched elsewhere at the table, across from himself, then to his right and left and hovering overhead. Kennedy asked him to draw two rows of glasses, stretching off into the distance. Representing this kind of perspective is tough even for a sighted person. And when he asked him to draw a cube, and then to rotate it to the left, and then further to the left, Armagan drew a scene with all three cubes. Astonishingly, he drew it in three-point perspective - showing a perfect grasp of how horizontal and vertical lines converge at imaginary points in the distance. "My breath was taken away," Kennedy says.
...
Even more intriguing was the way in which drawing activated Armagan's visual cortex. It is now well established that when sighted people try to imagine things - faces, scenes, colours, items they've just looked at - they engage the same parts of their visual cortex that they use to see, only to a much lesser degree. Creating these mental images is a lot like seeing, only less powerful. When Armagan imagined items he had touched, parts of his visual cortex, too, were mildly activated. But when he drew, his visual cortex lit up as though he was seeing. In fact, says Pascual-Leone, a naive viewer of his scan might assume Armagan really could see.

That result cracks open another big nut: what is "seeing" exactly? Even without the ability to detect light, Armagan is coming incredibly close to it, admits Pascual-Leone. We can't know what is actually being generated in his brain. "But whatever that thing in his mind is, he is able to transfer it to paper so that I unequivocally know it's the same object he just felt," says Pascual-Leone.
...
We normally think of seeing as the taking in of objective reality through our eyes. But is it? How much of what we think of as seeing really comes from without, and how much from within? The visual cortex may have a much more important role than we realise in creating expectations for what we are about to see, says Pascual-Leone. "Seeing is only possible when you know what you're going to see," he says. Perhaps in Armagan the expectation part is operational, but there is simply no data coming in visually.


His paintings

For Real Things I Know - http://solomonj.blogspot.com

"My point is, that you cannot use lack of evidence for one possibility as proof for another." - Dude

“I would rather delude myself with comforting fantasies than face a cold reality” - Isaiah, altered from astropin

Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26020 Posts

Posted - 01/31/2005 :  20:22:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Isaiah

This article makes me wonder how much our preconceptions rule what our brain tells us we see?
Obviously, everything we see is processed through the brain. There's no way around that. So, technically, you're not "seeing" these words, or even the light from your monitor - those photons are clearly gone long before a "visual" signal reaches your brain, and even longer before you process the word 'you' to be a pronoun referring to Isaiah.

Last week, I spent some time amusing my coworkers with what I've come to call "Find the Black Dot." I didn't invent the illusion, but I like it a lot. It's a field of black squares with grey bars between them, with white dots at each intersection. Looking at it, your brain tries to "fill in" the areas in your peripheral vision, and you'll see hints of black dots inside the white dots in the intersections, but as soon as you move your eyes, your brain shows you the detailed version, containing nothing.

It really annoys some people. I was told last week that "it's the most horrific thing I've ever seen," and my boss years ago used the f-word when he saw it.

Ah, here's a small version of it. When I make one, I fill an 8.5x11" page with hundreds of squares (copy-and-paste is great). The effect is more pronounced.

The point is that the brain often tells us things which just aren't true. Not just with sight, but with sound, taste, smell, touch and temperature, also. Brains are damn amusing things to have around.

Oh, and obviously, Armagan is quite skilled, though after the build-up in the article, I was disappointed in his actual work.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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Why not question something for a change?
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 02/01/2005 :  01:04:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
That is so cool!

I'm gonna do one and give it to my son-in-law. It'll have him stark, raving mad in seconds.


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Wendy
SFN Regular

USA
614 Posts

Posted - 02/01/2005 :  07:54:28   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Wendy a Yahoo! Message Send Wendy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.

Oh, and obviously, Armagan is quite skilled, though after the build-up in the article, I was disappointed in his actual work.


Really? Granted the guy is no Rembrandt, but he's BLIND!!! It's a heck of a lot better than I could do with two good eyes.

Hmmmm.... wonder if he's faking...

Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26020 Posts

Posted - 02/01/2005 :  08:21:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
I think, Wendy, that you're selling yourself - and other blind people - short. It seems obvious to me that blind people "visualize" things all the time (otherwise they'd grope around their own homes). I wonder how many blind people have tried to paint.

Now, if the guy could tell green paint from red without help, that would be impressive.

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Wendy
SFN Regular

USA
614 Posts

Posted - 02/01/2005 :  08:40:33   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Wendy a Yahoo! Message Send Wendy a Private Message
Perhaps I am making it too complicated, but it seems to me that for a person blind from birth to feel a three dimensional object, and then paint it as a two dimensional object that appears to be three dimensional is incredible.

I am curious about how much assistance he has from sighted people while painting. For example, I wonder if someone places his hand where one object in the painting ends so he can have a point of reference, or if he does it all from memory.

Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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Siberia
SFN Addict

Brazil
2322 Posts

Posted - 02/01/2005 :  08:57:17   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Siberia's Homepage  Send Siberia an AOL message  Send Siberia a Yahoo! Message Send Siberia a Private Message
That's better than I can do with two functioning eyes, geez. That's mindboggling.

I love optical illusions, though; I had plenty of them. I'll see if I can find them, some are pretty neat.

"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa

"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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serendipitypublishing
Skeptic Friend

60 Posts

Posted - 02/01/2005 :  10:53:48   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit serendipitypublishing's Homepage Send serendipitypublishing a Private Message
I read the article that Isaiah posted and I was amazed. I think the next article in the same magazine was on a similar topic discussing illusions projected outwards.
It's only possible if everything is in your imagination. You would have to of had an experience to question it's truth. I remember once being offered some mushroom tea to try. I was quite young at the time and didn't really know what to expect. Anyway, it was hallucinogenic, which I have come to understand to mean, seeing soemthing that is not there. I was quite terrified by the whole experience but it did open my mind to question whether I am seeing what I believe or believing what I see.

From what Wendy said, it's quite possible that words had so accurately described the images of the world that the blind artist was able to picture what they are like. Over a period of trial and error based on the reactions of sighted people his learning system would then begin to understand what works and what doesn't allowing him to build a picture in his imagination.

Learning system's really do alter what you wish to see :


Count the number of times the letter 'F' appears in the following text and post your results:
-----------------------------
FINISHED FILES ARE THE
RESULT OF YEARS OF SCIENTIFIC
STUDY COMBINED WITH THE
EXPERIENCE OF YEARS
------------------------------

'We're all in the gutter but some of us are looking up at the stars'
Oscar Wilde

http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/freeflowpyramids/
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 02/01/2005 :  10:55:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
6

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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Wendy
SFN Regular

USA
614 Posts

Posted - 02/01/2005 :  11:17:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Wendy a Yahoo! Message Send Wendy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by serendipitypublishing

From what Wendy said, it's quite possible that words had so accurately described the images of the world that the blind artist was able to picture what they are like. Over a period of trial and error based on the reactions of sighted people his learning system would then begin to understand what works and what doesn't allowing him to build a picture in his imagination.


From what I said? I honestly don't know how he does it!

Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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serendipitypublishing
Skeptic Friend

60 Posts

Posted - 02/01/2005 :  11:21:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit serendipitypublishing's Homepage Send serendipitypublishing a Private Message
I was referring to :

quote:
I am curious about how much assistance he has from sighted people while painting.


Not in guiding his hand but in describing what they are seeing helping him to build a mental picture.

Gorge, are you sure ?? Anyone else ?

'We're all in the gutter but some of us are looking up at the stars'
Oscar Wilde

http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/freeflowpyramids/
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serendipitypublishing
Skeptic Friend

60 Posts

Posted - 02/01/2005 :  11:24:17   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit serendipitypublishing's Homepage Send serendipitypublishing a Private Message
Count the number of times the letter 'F' appears in the following text and post your results:
-----------------------------
FINISHED FILES ARE THE
RESULT OF YEARS OF SCIENTIFIC
STUDY COMBINED WITH THE
EXPERIENCE OF YEARS
------------------------------

'We're all in the gutter but some of us are looking up at the stars'
Oscar Wilde

http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/freeflowpyramids/
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Wendy
SFN Regular

USA
614 Posts

Posted - 02/01/2005 :  12:55:16   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Wendy a Yahoo! Message Send Wendy a Private Message
Six.

Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 02/01/2005 :  13:18:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by serendipitypublishing

Count the number of times the letter 'F' appears in the following text and post your results:
-----------------------------
FINISHED FILES ARE THE
RESULT OF YEARS OF SCIENTIFIC
STUDY COMBINED WITH THE
EXPERIENCE OF YEARS
------------------------------



I get 6.


Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
Edited by - Valiant Dancer on 02/01/2005 15:20:26
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26020 Posts

Posted - 02/01/2005 :  13:30:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
Six.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 02/01/2005 :  14:06:22   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message
I got 7

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
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