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 Evidence for evolution "spotty"?
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 02/19/2005 :  00:24:05  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
Seems we have a couple of new members who are not up to speed on the weight of the evidence for evolution.

jimmrobb, in his blog, calls the evidence "spotty".
http://www.skepticsclub.com/?postid=8

As he has declined to comment in another thread when I asked him to clarify, I thought I'd start a new thread and see if there is some response he'd like to make.

Then we have pspano58 who appears to be a Hovind disciple.

Both of you should read this:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth

Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 02/19/2005 :  00:29:54   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
And read this:

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 02/19/2005 :  03:44:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
And this, and this as well.

Oh, and let us not forget this, little gem! It might save us some time down the road...




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 02/19/2005 :  05:08:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
And don't forget my really long post halfway down the page here.
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David Mc
Skeptic Friend

USA
63 Posts

Posted - 02/20/2005 :  11:50:16   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send David Mc a Private Message
Jim Robb posted a fair minded blog. If the only contention is over the word "spotty" then I don't see why. It IS spotty.

How many millions of species have come and gone? How many fossils have been found? DNA contamination, Carbon 14 contamination, the Earth's surface (on an evolutionary time scale) keeps flipping over like a pan of scrambled eggs. Changing climates. It's quite a puzzle.

Has anyone brought up the 25 million year old Guadeloupe Woman in awhile? I never did hear the resolution on that find.

The research of Evolution is, by it's nature, a messy endeavour. In that light, "spotty" is quite an accomplishment and a vast improvement from it's former stage of "blasphemy".
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9666 Posts

Posted - 02/20/2005 :  13:15:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by David Mc
Has anyone brought up the 25 million year old Guadeloupe Woman in awhile? I never did hear the resolution on that find.

Yeah, and what about the Piltdown man...
And that foot-print of a man that was found in a dino-track.
And the Grand Canyon-like formations on the slope of Mt. St.Helen.

Edited to add:
I did some web-searches on the Guadeloupe woman and the only non-creationist site I got a hit on was Internet Infidels where it was mentioned very briefly. I suspect it dropped out of sight because it is a non-issue for scientists.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
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Collateralmurder.
Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 02/20/2005 13:52:43
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 02/20/2005 :  13:36:48   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
Well define "spotty" then and we can go from there. The evidence for evolution is overwhelming. The evidence for competing theories is nil. The advent of new lab technologies that allow easier and inexpensive analysis of DNA has led to an explosion of new research and the resulting data identifies a complete picture of the mechanisms underlying evolution. DNA analysis of human migration out of Africa through looking at genetic markers closely matches existing anthropological data of human migration out of Africa which closely matches mapping of language evolution along the migration routes. Manipulation of genes has shown how evolution occurs in that the data to grow an organism contained in the embryo is in sections. Instructions to grow a limb and where it goes are separate from instructions on what will grow thus explaining how mutations can change an organism without completely disrupting it.

Just what is it that qualifies as 'spotty'? Single pieces of evidence here and there? That doesn't change overwhelming evidence and science has no issue with irregular data. The data are in error in some way or fit in differently than hypothesized. But the theory isn't undermined. That's silly.

Read M Shermer's short piece I posted in the other thread.
Edited by - beskeptigal on 02/20/2005 13:40:06
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 02/20/2005 :  15:23:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
quote:
Jim Robb posted a fair minded blog. If the only contention is over the word "spotty" then I don't see why. It IS spotty.



Well, then why don't you support this claim?

Explain exactly how the evidence for evolution is "spotty".

In specific, I'd like to hear your explanation of how some of the molecular evidence for common descent is "spotty".


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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David Mc
Skeptic Friend

USA
63 Posts

Posted - 02/20/2005 :  19:38:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send David Mc a Private Message
Once again, in more direct tone.

What happened to the data on the "25 million year old Guadeloupe Woman". Supposedly her skeleton, minus head and feet were found in and dated by the rock layer. What happened?

It could be that the reason you have all of that supporting data, is that supporting data is all that "they" are giving you.

Things like that make it "spotty" for some of us. Not bad or rediculous.

If he meant "scarce", I'm going to have to do some fast back peddling.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25977 Posts

Posted - 02/20/2005 :  20:05:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by David Mc

What happened to the data on the "25 million year old Guadeloupe Woman". Supposedly her skeleton, minus head and feet were found in and dated by the rock layer. What happened?
Here's the best explanation I can find. Ask Bill Cooper what happened to the data, as it appears that he's the only person to have ever claimed that the skeleton is 25 million years old.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 02/20/2005 :  20:17:38   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by David Mc

Once again, in more direct tone.

What happened to the data on the "25 million year old Guadeloupe Woman". Supposedly her skeleton, minus head and feet were found in and dated by the rock layer. What happened?

It could be that the reason you have all of that supporting data, is that supporting data is all that "they" are giving you.

Things like that make it "spotty" for some of us. Not bad or rediculous.

If he meant "scarce", I'm going to have to do some fast back peddling.

Having never heard of this Guadeloupe woman, I too, looked it up and found only this tripe:
quote:
The Guadeloupe woman. In 1812, on the Caribbean island of Guadeloupe, a fully human skeleton was found, lacking only the head and feet. It was found inside extremely hard, very old limestone, which was part of a formation over a mile in length.

In accordance with their theory, evolutionists date that rock at 25 million years! You will not find the Guadeloupe woman mentioned in the textbooks, since this find would disprove evolutionary strata dating.p. 29.

Sandstone is actually quite a soft, sedimentary stone, but that's not important. They present exactly zero comfirming evidence, and after looking at a few of the other claims on the page, I think we can safely discount it as merely more apologetic blather.
quote:
The Glen Rose tracks. A remarkable number of human tracks have been found in a Cretaceous limestone formation near Glen Rose, Texas. Many are of giant men. The prints have been found in the bed of Paluxy River, when it is dry in the summer. Some are next to, on top of, or under dinosaur tracks.

The Glen Rose tracks are 15 inches long [38.1 cm], and were probably made by people 8.3 feet [25,38 dm] tall. Some, 21 inches [54.6 cm] long, would have been made by people 11.8 feet [25.38 dm] tall.

*R.T. Bird, a paleontologist with the American Museum of Natural History, also found a trail of Brontosaurus tracks which were shipped to the museum. That means people were alive when the dinosaurs were! Some human tracks overlaid the dinosaur tracks, and some were found in layers below the dinosaurs.pp. 31-32.

The Paluxy Branch. In August 1978, Fred Beierie spent the afternoon searching for tracks in the Paluxy riverbed. He found a tree branch encased in Cretaceous stone, with only the upper part showing. So it was as old as the tracks.

Beierie sent a sample of the wood to *Reisner Berg of UCLA, who tested it by radiodating at 12,800 years. Corrected, it would yield a date agreeing with the Flood. (Carbon 14 dating tends to skew toward greater age on older dates, because of atmospheric differences back then. See Dating of Time in Evolution for details.)

That would date both the giants and the dinosaurs as being recent.p. 32.

Every bit of this has been shown to be either mistaken or outright fraud.

Creationists seem to believe that there is some sort of scientific conspiricy concerning evolution. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Scientists are even more cut-throat than preachers, and if one found evidence to debunk the ToE, he'd shout it from the rooftops. And his fortune would be made. He'd not only get a Noble, but make a killing on the lecture circute, and sell out every book he writes even before they're written.

Y'see, disproving the Theory of Evolution is one of the biggest prizes science has to offer. Whoever does it will find his name replacing Darwin's in the annals of history and his/her legacy will be the complete renovation of the biological sciences.



"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 02/21/2005 :  00:24:50   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
quote:
What happened to the data on the "25 million year old Guadeloupe Woman". Supposedly her skeleton, minus head and feet were found in and dated by the rock layer. What happened?



blah blah blah....

I want you to explain how HERVs are, in your opinion, "spotty" evidence. If, as is likely, you have no idea what a HERV is, click the link.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section4.html#retroviruses

quote:
It could be that the reason you have all of that supporting data, is that supporting data is all that "they" are giving you.



Ohh.... yeah, I forgot about "them". Yeah. "They" are to be feared, for "they" will silence and suppress all information that goes against "their" plans for world domination! Pardon me while I run a quick sweep of my house for wiretaps and miniature vieo cams!

fercryinoutloud.....

If you really think there is some conspiracy out there to supress evidence that may contradict the ToE, then you need to seek professional help.

As filthy said, the guy who provides the evidence that changes the scientific view concerning evolution will be one very wealthy and famous scientist. If you fundie-folks think that scientists are all cuddly and friendly with one another, and exist only to propogate each other's pet theories, then you are clearly unfamilliar with the process of defending a dissertation or peer review. Scientists eat their young and kill the weak among the general population.

So, get on with explaining to me what makes that molecular evidence "spotty".


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 02/21/2005 :  06:40:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
The Theory of Evolution is 'spotty' and/or 'messy?' Hmmm.... Nope. Can't accept that.

Now if you were to say that the fossil record was spotty (but certainly not messy) you might have something of a case. Until, that is, you take into consideration the predictions of the ToE.

We do not know all of the species that inhabited the earth, and never will. Even the Burgess Shales, that are over-loaded with fossils, still do not represent all of the species extant. However, the ToE easily fills in the gaps.

For example, the Theory of Evolution has predicted that there is a common ancestor that our forebearers and our feces-flinging cousins split off from somewhere beteen about six and eight million years ago. And lo and behold, Sahelanthropus tchadensis, known as the Touami Skull was discovered in Chad and dated at some 6 million years.

At this writing, the find is still under review, and it's starting fistfights. Some say it's an ape; some say it's an ancestor of the Australopithines(sp?). It has features found in both.

Answers in Genesis has all but a Gordian Knot in their knickers over it, although I don't see where it's their place to comment. No one associated with them is doing any studies on Toumai. But that sort of thing has never stopped them from blithering before...

And if Toumai truns out to be an ape or a hominid, well, the Toe has predicted that as well, and the common ancestor has yet to be found.

No, the Theory of Evolution is not spotty; it is elegant.


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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David Mc
Skeptic Friend

USA
63 Posts

Posted - 02/21/2005 :  17:42:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send David Mc a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

Yeah, and what about the Piltdown man...
And that foot-print of a man that was found in a dino-track.
And the Grand Canyon-like formations on the slope of Mt. St.Helen.

Edited to add:
I did some web-searches on the Guadeloupe woman and the only non-creationist site I got a hit on was Internet Infidels where it was mentioned very briefly. I suspect it dropped out of sight because it is a non-issue for scientists.


Dave W. provided answer enough on "Ms. Guadeloupe". Anyone resistant to subjecting their "evidence" to testing has no evidence.
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David Mc
Skeptic Friend

USA
63 Posts

Posted - 02/21/2005 :  17:51:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send David Mc a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal

Well define "spotty" then...

... your post did such a good job of defining "UN-spotty" I don't think we need to. Every preconceived notion of argument I could think of is being systematically smashed from one post to the next. Ahhh the joy of education.
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tomk80
SFN Regular

Netherlands
1278 Posts

Posted - 02/21/2005 :  18:07:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit tomk80's Homepage Send tomk80 a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by David Mc

quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

Yeah, and what about the Piltdown man...
And that foot-print of a man that was found in a dino-track.
And the Grand Canyon-like formations on the slope of Mt. St.Helen.

Edited to add:
I did some web-searches on the Guadeloupe woman and the only non-creationist site I got a hit on was Internet Infidels where it was mentioned very briefly. I suspect it dropped out of sight because it is a non-issue for scientists.


Dave W. provided answer enough on "Ms. Guadeloupe". Anyone resistant to subjecting their "evidence" to testing has no evidence.


So why hasn't Cooper carbon dated the Guadeloupe woman. According to Dave's link, the british museum offered to do so for a fee. If I were Cooper, I'd get some money together.

Tom

`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll-
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