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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
 Posted - 03/26/2005 : 00:56:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by jimmy
There is a big economic cost to saving Terry. Why dont her parents pay her medical bill instead of all of us tax payers. As in America we are supposed to take our own responsibility. Isnt it? Wow what a stupid thought?
While Medicaid does pay for some of Terri's care, it's an entitlement, given by the people, for the people. While I suppose Terri's guardian (no matter whom) could refuse to accept Medicaid payments, and choose to shoulder the entire burden themselves, there's no reason Terri's parents should have to do so.
The people spoke, long ago, and said "the poor and disabled should be helped by the Federal and State governments to pay for medical care." The only way to strip her of payments would be to kill Medicaid entirely (which the Republicans, ironically, are helping to do).
Lastly, it's pretty tacky to make this an issue about money. Whether falsely asserting that Michael Schiavo is only trying to "kill" Terri for profit, or whining about how much this is costing all of us (pennies per taxpayer per year, tops), this is not a subject which should be decided in people's wallets.
While yes, the money going to Terri could be spread around to do a lot of good, it's unlikely it actually would do so.
On a completely different note, here's a nice guy:Authorities said Richard Alan Meywes of Fairview, North Carolina, offered $250,000 for the killing of Michael Schiavo and another $50,000 for the death of Circuit Court Judge George Greer, who ordered Schiavo's feeding tube removed a week ago.
- CNN And then there are these bright bulbs:Outside the hospice, eight more people - including a 10-year old boy and 13-year-old twin girls - were arrested Friday for trying to bring her water.
- HeraldToday.com Of course, having her drink water could very well kill her (either through drowning or pneumonia), so what were these people thinking?
Oh, and despite the polls above (and discussed in the previous thread), NPR's All Things Considered last night said that this is an issue upon which evangelicals and Catholics agree. Perhaps they were only speaking about the protestors... |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2005 : 04:36:04 [Permalink]
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From the Miami Herald (registration required -- this will fix it):
quote:
TERRI SCHIAVO CASE
Police 'showdown' averted
BY CAROL MARBIN MILLER
cmarbin@herald.com
Hours after a judge ordered that Terri Schiavo was not to be removed from her hospice, a team of state agents were en route to seize her and have her feeding tube reinserted -- but they stopped short when local police told them they would enforce the judge's order, The Herald has learned.
Agents of the Florida Department of Law Enforcement told police in Pinellas Park, the small town where Schiavo lies at Hospice Woodside, on Thursday that they were on the way to take her to a hospital to resume her feeding.
For a brief period, local police, who have officers at the hospice to keep protesters out, prepared for what sources called ``a showdown.''
In the end, the squad from the FDLE and the Department of Children & Families backed down, apparently concerned about confronting local police outside the hospice.
''We told them that unless they had the judge with them when they came, they were not going to get in,'' said a source with the local police.
''The FDLE called to say they were en route to the scene,'' said an official with the city police who requested anonymity. ``When the sheriff's department and our department told them they could not enforce their order, they backed off.''
The incident,known only to a few and related to The Herald by three different sources involved in Thursday's events, underscores the intense emotion and murky legal terrain that the Schiavo case has created. It also shows that agencies answering directly to Gov. Jeb Bush had planned to use a wrinkle in Florida law that would have allowed them to legally get around the judge's order. The exception in the law allows public agencies to freeze a judge's order whenever an agency appeals it.
It is a hard thing to say, but I really hope Terri's body dies soonist, before someone gets shot.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2005 : 05:25:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
If she is brain dead and can feel nothing. And is aware of nothing. And is in a place where nothing could hurt, harm or discomfort her in anyway. If this is a fact of truth, then what harm would it have caused to put the tube back into her and send her home to her parents that cling to their hope for a miracle.
Several reasons. Primarily that it was not her wish (as determined by the FL courts across YEARS of litigation, using laws that were written by a bi-partisan effort with the input of many conservative right to life organizations) to NOT be maintained in such a way.
Hoe many of you evangelicals are aware that your beloved PREZ signed a law in TX that allows hospitals to remove life support from people AGAINST the wishes of their family? That's right! In TX, thanks to W, a hospital can take you off life support against the wishes of you or your family. In fact, it was done no so long ago. As filthy linked to this once, this may be redundant.... but hey.
http://www.hoffmania.com/blog/2005/03/tx_infant_allow.html
quote:
Under chapter 166 of the Texas Health and Safety Code, if an attending physician disagrees with a surrogate over a life-and-death treatment decision, there must be an ethics committee consultation (with notice to the surrogate and an opportunity to participate). In a futility case such as Sun Hudson's, in which the treatment team is seeking to stop treatment deemed to be nonbeneficial, if the ethics committee agrees with the team, the hospital will be authorized to discontinue the disputed treatment (after a 10-day delay, during which the hospital must help try to find a facility that will accept a transfer of the patient). These provisions, which were added to Texas law in 1999, originally applied only to adult patients; in 2003; they were made applicable to disputes over treatment decisions for or on behalf of minors. (I hasten to add that one of the co-drafters in both 1999 and 2003 was the National Right to Life Committee. Witnesses who testified in support of the bill in 1999 included representatives of National Right to Life, Texas Right to Life, and the Hemlock Society. Our bill passed both houses, unanimously, both years, and the 1999 law was signed by then Governor George W. Bush.)
Here's the actual law:
http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/statutes/docs/HS/content/htm/hs.002.00.000166.00.htm
So.... THREE DAYS before Terri's feeding tube was removed, the life support from a BABY was taken away in TX. Against the wishes of that baby's parents.
Where's the outrage?
Again, I must concur with filthy's assessment: Fucking hypocrits!
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2005 : 07:20:45 [Permalink]
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Found at MediaMatters: The charlatans, notably and predictably, Edward, advertise themselves to the woo-woo fringe with Terri as their poster child:
quote:
Fox's psychic friend: Crossing Over's John Edward claimed Terri Schiavo is "definitely clear on what's happening now around her"
Psychic medium, author, and former television host John Edward claimed on Fox News' morning show Fox & Friends that Terri Schiavo is "definitely clear on what's happening now around her." Edward was responding to a question from host Steve Doocy about whether Edward could communicate with Schiavo.
Edward, whose website says that he has "helped thousands with his uncanny ability to predict future events and communicate with those who have crossed over to the Other Side," was on the show to promote his new book, Practical Praying: Using the Rosary to Enhance Your Life (Hay House, 2005). Edward was the host of the nationally syndicated TV show Crossing Over with John Edward, which aired on the Sci Fi Channel before being canceled in 2004. In October 2001, Edwards taped a segment of Crossing Over in which he "purport[ed] to contact victims of the World Trade Center attacks," according to a Washington Post article. But the episode was canceled for fear of offending the public. According to the Post, "production house Studios USA axed the whole idea after reporters and station execs -- the two least queasy segments of society -- actually cringed."
From the March 24 edition of Fox & Friends:
The article continues with a short bit of Q&A. Words cannot express my contempt for these vile specimens of putrescent, human scum.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Timgraysr
New Member
USA
21 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2005 : 08:31:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
quote:
If she is brain dead and can feel nothing. And is aware of nothing. And is in a place where nothing could hurt, harm or discomfort her in anyway. If this is a fact of truth, then what harm would it have caused to put the tube back into her and send her home to her parents that cling to their hope for a miracle.
Several reasons. Primarily that it was not her wish (as determined by the FL courts across YEARS of litigation, using laws that were written by a bi-partisan effort with the input of many conservative right to life organizations) to NOT be maintained in such a way.
Hoe many of you evangelicals are aware that your beloved PREZ signed a law in TX that allows hospitals to remove life support from people AGAINST the wishes of their family? That's right! In TX, thanks to W, a hospital can take you off life support against the wishes of you or your family. In fact, it was done no so long ago. As filthy linked to this once, this may be redundant.... but hey.
http://www.hoffmania.com/blog/2005/03/tx_infant_allow.html
quote:
Under chapter 166 of the Texas Health and Safety Code, if an attending physician disagrees with a surrogate over a life-and-death treatment decision, there must be an ethics committee consultation (with notice to the surrogate and an opportunity to participate). In a futility case such as Sun Hudson's, in which the treatment team is seeking to stop treatment deemed to be nonbeneficial, if the ethics committee agrees with the team, the hospital will be authorized to discontinue the disputed treatment (after a 10-day delay, during which the hospital must help try to find a facility that will accept a transfer of the patient). These provisions, which were added to Texas law in 1999, originally applied only to adult patients; in 2003; they were made applicable to disputes over treatment decisions for or on behalf of minors. (I hasten to add that one of the co-drafters in both 1999 and 2003 was the National Right to Life Committee. Witnesses who testified in support of the bill in 1999 included representatives of National Right to Life, Texas Right to Life, and the Hemlock Society. Our bill passed both houses, unanimously, both years, and the 1999 law was signed by then Governor George W. Bush.)
Here's the actual law:
http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/statutes/docs/HS/content/htm/hs.002.00.000166.00.htm
So.... THREE DAYS before Terri's feeding tube was removed, the life support from a BABY was taken away in TX. Against the wishes of that baby's parents.
Where's the outrage?
Again, I must concur with filthy's assessment: Fucking hypocrits!
I am impressed. With no comments about God, heaven or hell you were able to surmize using your keen legal savey that I was an evangelical. But, I am not. Perhaps those that believe that life is precious and in the power of love as in that of a parent are the ones you intended to single out. I too understand the law. I understand for example that if you were accused, tried and convicted of rape or robery you would be guilty. Even if you were in another country when it happened. If the law says you are guilty, you are. The moral aspects of your innocence is irrelivant. If the law says you are brain dead then you are. Wether you agonize through a tortured life for a week trapped in a body that you can not even scream from to your eventual death. You are brain dead. The only argument that you seem to have is for the loving husband Michael.
Surly we can judge a tree on the fruit it bares. There is a lot of money to be gained when she is "body dead". No one that knew them agrees with what he said. Those that have spoken out have done so to accuse him of lying and of saying horindus things about her including " is the bitch dead yet". I was pleased to learn that a $50,000 fee was placed on his head today via an e-mail or something.
I do believe in circles. So if he and the fact that green is blue when ordered by the courts are your arguments, again I say "Shame on you". |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2005 : 08:59:13 [Permalink]
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Tim, Terri's husband was offered $1 million to release custody of her. He declined to do so. Do you still think it's about money?
Once again, for those of you in the cheap seats: Terri is not brain-dead; she is in a permanent vegetative state. At least 40% of her front brain is gone and replaced with cerebrospinal fluid. That's the scientific diagnosis, whether you like it or not.
Whatever your faith is, whatever your beliefs about the human soul or spirit (and I have beliefs on that too), you can't disregard the biological state of her brain.
I understand her parents' anguish. It makes me physically ill to hear the details of Terri's dying. I cried for an hour the other night after watching the videos of her. This situation is bringing back horrible memories of my personal experiences, in addition to making me furious at a moral and political level.
Tim, please think critically here. And please know that it's possible for compassion and love to live on both sides of this issue. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2005 : 10:49:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Those that have spoken out have done so to accuse him of lying and of saying horindus things about her including " is the bitch dead yet".
Please forgive the quote-mining, it's not something I make a habit of, but do you have a reliable scource for this statment?
If not, I will have to put it down to more of the obscene blather that is surrounding this unhappy time.
As for the 50 grand bounty, if true, someone should pull a jolt in Marion, IL for that foul piece of work. I'd love to find out who the slimey bastard is...
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2005 : 10:59:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Timgraysr
Perhaps those that believe that life is precious and in the power of love as in that of a parent are the ones you intended to single out.
...
I was pleased to learn that a $50,000 fee was placed on his head today via an e-mail or something.
If you intended to include yourself among "those that believe that life is precious," then the second sentence of yours, quoted above, making you a raging hypocrite. You cannot maintain that life is precious and be happy that someone is instigating a murder-for-hire both, without being self-contradictory. If Michael Schiavo is murdered, I hope you never forget that you were cheering.
Apparently, this whole "hypocrisy" thing is difficult to understand, for many people. But how do you, Timgraysr, feel about the death penalty? How about the war in Iraq? And, as has already been asked, where is your outrage over Sun Hudson?quote:
If the law says you are brain dead then you are.
The law doesn't say Terri is brain dead, it agrees with several competent and professional doctors that she is in a persistent vegetative state with no hope for recovery.quote:
Wether you agonize through a tortured life for a week...
Nevermind that she may have been being tortured - by your logic - for the last 15 years.quote:
The only argument that you seem to have is for the loving husband Michael.
Then you haven't been paying attention.quote:
Surly we can judge a tree on the fruit it bares.
Yeah, let's go judge some books by their covers, too. Some perfectly healthy plants bear fruit which is poisonous to humans. Are they "evil"?quote:
There is a lot of money to be gained when she is "body dead".
Where is your evidence of this claim? Do you not understand that every statement of "fact" like this one will be challenged here? If you can't produce evidence to support these ideas you shouldn't believe them, either.quote:
No one that knew them agrees with what he said. Those that have spoken out have done so to accuse him of lying and of saying horindus things about her including " is the bitch dead yet".
Interesting, but without foundation it's impossible to verify the claim. Of course, the idea that no one who knew them agrees with him, since Michael's brother and sister-in-law, who also stand to gain nothing in Terri's death, testified that they had heard her say she didn't want to live the way she is.quote:
I do believe in circles. So if he and the fact that green is blue when ordered by the courts are your arguments, again I say "Shame on you".
You have yet to offer any evidence that the courts are stating that green is blue. All I see them saying is that green is green and blue is blue, and that Terri's parents' argument that green is blue is unlikely to be successful. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2005 : 11:01:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Timgraysr
I am impressed. With no comments about God, heaven or hell you were able to surmize using your keen legal savey that I was an evangelical. But, I am not.
Fine by me.
quote:
Perhaps those that believe that life is precious and in the power of love as in that of a parent are the ones you intended to single out.
Whoever said that those who do support the court's decisions do not believe that life is precious?
quote:
I too understand the law. I understand for example that if you were accused, tried and convicted of rape or robery you would be guilty. Even if you were in another country when it happened. If the law says you are guilty, you are. The moral aspects of your innocence is irrelivant.
This is not true. The courts can make wrong decisions, and we acknowledge that. However, in this case both parties have been heard, and the side of Terris parents has shown to be lacking in arguments, both from the side of medical status and on from the side of Terri's own wishes.
quote:
If the law says you are brain dead then you are.
The court did not decide that Terri is brain dead. It would be good if you would actually be aware of what is discussed.
quote:
Wether you agonize through a tortured life for a week trapped in a body that you can not even scream from to your eventual death. You are brain dead. The only argument that you seem to have is for the loving husband Michael.
Get yourself some juice. 40% of Terris brain looks like that. Again, she is not brain dead and few here argue such, but the part of her brain that gives her her consciesness has turned into a pulp. There is no chance of recovery, there is no consciesness, just a shell. That is what we have to conclude from the facts. I argue 'for' the husband because his case is the only sane one.
quote:
Surly we can judge a tree on the fruit it bares. There is a lot of money to be gained when she is "body dead". No one that knew them agrees with what he said.
You are clearly dishonest here. It is a well-known fact that Michael Shiavo has been offered a million dollars to release custody of his wife. If he was in it for the money, he would be rich at this point. That he hasn't accepted the money is a clear indication that he is not in it for monetary gain. It is you, sir, who is making some pretty erronous assumptions here.
quote:
Those that have spoken out have done so to accuse him of lying and of saying horindus things about her including " is the bitch dead yet".
Sources?
quote:
I was pleased to learn that a $50,000 fee was placed on his head today via an e-mail or something.
You, sir, are a hypocritical know-nothing. The above statement in conjuction with your statement that life is precious clearly support my statement that you are a hypocrit. The fact that you get so many facts wrong despite them being in these threads right before your eyes support my statement that you are a know-nothing.
quote:
I do believe in circles. So if he and the fact that green is blue when ordered by the courts are your arguments, again I say "Shame on you".
If you would have actually read Dude's post you would see that he is not saying that the court's decision is always right, but that he is pointing out the hypocritical actions of GW Bush in light of another termination-of-treatment-case in Texas which hasn't gotten any attention from aformentioned president, or for that matter from you. Where is your protest against the case of Sun Hudson?
If you would have actually read most of the post here, and I'm at this point fairly convinced that you haven't, you would know that the above does not apply to a number of people on this board. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2005 : 12:49:33 [Permalink]
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No one can be an expert on all subjects; not you nor I, nor any judge in the land. Therefore, courts and their judges must must rely upon evidence presented by those who are expert in their fields. This is what has been done, in my opinion, properly.
The long and short of it is that Terri Schiavo is dead and has been for 15 years. All that is left is a warm, breathing, twitching corpse. Yeah, I know; them's hard sayin's, but that's the way it is.
As has been stated before, she is not 'brain dead.' If she were, she would not have the involentary process' such as breathing. But still, she is not in there any more. She had expressed her desire not to continue life in such a state, as have a great many people including myself. Thus, her sad remains should be put to rest with what remaining dignity can be salvaged from this ghastly affair. It is barbarous to continue it.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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ktesibios
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2005 : 13:40:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Timgraysr
I am impressed. With no comments about God, heaven or hell you were able to surmize using your keen legal savey that I was an evangelical. But, I am not.
Actually, the salient characteristics were all there. When you come across an air-breathing animal which has a jointed exoskeleton divided into three major parts and six legs attached to the middle part, you can tentatively classify it as belonging to the class Insecta. Rigidity, an impenetrable inability to understand what anyone else is saying beyond the perception that it doesn't fit the party line, a propensity for excluded-middle thinking, spouting demonstrable falsehoods and an inability to compose a coherent English paragraph are sufficient for a tentative classification as a member of that other class of arthropod which you mention.
quote:
Those that have spoken out have done so to accuse him of lying and of saying horindus things about her including " is the bitch dead yet".
Accusation = guilt in your world? I notice that you don't mention anything about the people making these accusations presenting any evidence in support, or that you think that this could be relevant, or that you understand anything about what an affirmative claim is and the burden of proof it entails.
Come to think of it, that firms up the taxonomy quite a bit.
quote:
I was pleased to learn that a $50,000 fee was placed on his head today via an e-mail or something.
And your feelings about the fatwa against Salman Rushdie? Hey, at least that one came from a widely recognized religious authority. Or do you only support public calls for murder when the intended victim is someone who doesn't meet your arthropod standards of speech and conduct?
Fucking hypocrite.
quote:
I do believe in circles. So if he and the fact that green is blue when ordered by the courts are your arguments, again I say "Shame on you".
Nice little strawman there. Have fun burning it.
Fucking ignorant hypocrite.  |
"The Republican agenda is to turn the United States into a third-world shithole." -P.Z.Myers |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2005 : 16:34:43 [Permalink]
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Not many of those camped out in Florida seem to be saying much about children dying from easily preventable causes.
I found it interesting that the Texas Law Bush signed re withdrawing treatment includes "artificial nutrition and hydration" as:quote:
(10) "Life-sustaining treatment" means treatment
that, based on reasonable medical judgment, sustains the life of a
patient and without which the patient will die. The term includes
both life-sustaining medications and artificial life support, such
as mechanical breathing machines, kidney dialysis treatment, and
artificial nutrition and hydration. The term does not include the
administration of pain management medication or the performance of
a medical procedure considered to be necessary to provide comfort
care, or any other medical care provided to alleviate a patient's
pain.
As far as the doctors that have claimed Terri is responsive, one was a quack, Hammersfahr, and the other, William Cheshire, was not necessarily an objective source of opinion.
William P. Cheshire, M.D.
List of published works in Pubmed. Nothing too exciting there in regards to this case.
Member of, among many organizations, The Christian Medical & Dental Associations.
Their news articles on the matter quotes their Dr Stevens, who I assume also has not seen nor examined Terri.
Dr Stevens claims evidence Terri can swallow: Terri Schiavo is not drooling. But I presume that observation was made from edited tapes. I do not know if Terri swallows or not.
The good doctor also claims:quote:
Feeding tubes are put in patients for many reasons, but in patients like Terri, they are often put in solely for the sake of convenience. That's because giving fluids and food a spoonful at a time in a patient like Terri could take up to an hour or two, whereas a bag of liquid food and fluids can be hung and gets the job done automatically.
That is outright false. The reason for feeding tubes in someone who can otherwise be fed is to prevent aspiration pneumonia if they cannot swallow well enough to keep from constantly choking on their food. If you want evidence, visit any nursing home in the USA. I guarantee you there will be people in each and every one of them being fed. And the only tube feeding going on will be persons who can't swallow well enough to prevent aspiration pneumonia, usually stroke victims.
So has Dr Stevens not bothered to check such a basic fact as his claim of convenience tube feeding? Did he make it up or is he just lying? Either way, there must be some member of that organization who noticed it was a false claim. Either they didn't speak up or the organization is ignoring the discrepancy.
The Association's web site has a reasonable position that is less radical than all of the religious groups who have weighed in on the matter. The web site describes PVS as distinguished by not being able to be fed by mouth.
In a case of PVS the group says tube feeding can sometimes actually increase suffering. Gee, I wonder why this hasn't been mentioned much?
Position on withholding nutrition.quote:
The primary goal of the Christian clinical ethic is to provide compassionate medical care to all human beings. We recognize that nutritional support is both a universal human biologic requirement and a fundamental demonstration of human caring. Because we believe there should be a basic covenant between all of us to care for those who are incapacitated, we are committed to the provision of food and water to those who cannot feed themselves.
In exceptional cases, tube feeding may actually result in increased patient suffering during the dying process. Although we have a basic covenant to offer food and water to patients, we recognize that the provision of enteral or parenteral nutrition may not be indicated in patients who are clearly and irreversibly deteriorating, who are beyond a reasonable hope of recovery, and in whom death appears imminent.
So the question I have here is why are they only going by their Dr Steven's observation maybe Terri can swallow? That seems to me to be an issue they are stretching to support their desire to side with the parents. It is a very simple matter to resolve and I find it extremely difficult to believe that answer isn't in those court documents and the medical record.
Instead we read all this condemnation of Mr Schiavo refusing to allow anyone to feed Terri. Again, what a bunch of bull. If food by mouth put her at risk of pneumonia, then he should have been refusing to allow it. In addition, it would not have been his decision in the early years if it wasn't a problem. It would have been a medical decision. If it were safe to feed her, even with a tube in she could have been given food and fluids by mouth. It isn't like you put a sign in the room, "please don't feed the patient anything extra, it might interfere with the nutritional balance of the tube feeding."
So is there some evidence he stopped her from receiving food by mouth when the court case started? That doesn't seem very likely. If the woman could swallow the evidence wouldn't be some little observation someone saw on a tape that NO ONE ELSE made note of. And since Dr Stevens is full of it, claiming we tube feed people for convenience, I have every reason to doubt the claim. And for that matter, how does Dr Stevens reconcile the issue of, why not give some food by mouth and the rest by tube if it is mere convenience we tube feed people?
So despite the stated position on bioethics, and despite bearing false witness being one of the 10 commandments, I have to wonder how these people reconcile their cognitive dissonance. |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 03/27/2005 05:40:14 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2005 : 16:57:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
Dr Stevens claims evidence Terri can swallow: Terri Schiavo is not drooling. But I presume that observation was made from edited tapes. I do not know if Terri swallows or not.
According to Dr. Wolfson's report (the recent guardian ad litem for Terri after Jeb Bush intervened), none of the accepted "swallow tests" have anything to do with saliva, they all base the swallow function on foreign liquids, which only makes sense - or do people in comas drown on a regular basis?
Also, Terri's earlier (many years ago) swallow tests were all negative. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2005 : 17:02:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Renae
Tim, Terri's husband was offered $1 million to release custody of her. He declined to do so. Do you still think it's about money?
.....
I understand her parents' anguish. It makes me physically ill to hear the details of Terri's dying. I cried for an hour the other night after watching the videos of her. This situation is bringing back horrible memories of my personal experiences, in addition to making me furious at a moral and political level.
Tim, please think critically here. And please know that it's possible for compassion and love to live on both sides of this issue.
One of the saddest things in this whole affair is the mountain of unfounded accusations against the husband.
Money - been disproved.
Claims of abuse - been disproved.
He has a new love and two kids - So? What would anyone expect after all this time? And, what? No one is capable of loving more than one person?
FOX stooped so low yesterday On reGretta Van Sustran as to bring out a nurses' aide who supposedly was assigned to Terri on a few occasions during her 4 month stint in 1993!!!! The aide said Mr Schiavo was "mean". Not to Terri, but to the aide. And the reason for being mean was he was demanding in how he wanted his wife cared for.
Gretta then tried to ask leading questions about Michael Schiavo's motives being to keep his wife from being cared for or making Michael look abusive toward Terri.
Of course several stations, CNN and FOX have been interviewing the friend of Terri's that supposedly knew Terri was about to ask for a divorce before the heart attack. Even if true that wouldn't mean Michael felt the same. The friend said Terri had "bruises" on her arms. Any other evidence? Nope. Let's ask Terri's sister. Any hint of abuse? Well, not until you mentioned it just now, 15 years later...gee maybe there was and I didn't recognize it, yes, ... that's very possible. The interview has been recreated here as closely as I remember it given I was gagging at the time.
Well that clinches it! No other possible explanation except this horrible man abused his wife and now wants her dead because... why was that again? Money, nope, been ruled out. He hates Terri? Surely there must be an explanation besides he wants to do what he believes is the right thing.
I wonder if any of these people condemning Michael Schiavo have even thought about how their comments might be inflicting pain on an innocent man that just happens to not have the same opinion as theirs? Nah..that would actually require compassion. Much better to see him as the evil devil he must be for not going along with the dogma of the Christian fanatics. |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 03/27/2005 05:39:23 |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2005 : 17:04:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
Dr Stevens claims evidence Terri can swallow: Terri Schiavo is not drooling. But I presume that observation was made from edited tapes. I do not know if Terri swallows or not.
According to Dr. Wolfson's report (the recent guardian ad litem for Terri after Jeb Bush intervened), none of the accepted "swallow tests" have anything to do with saliva, they all base the swallow function on foreign liquids, which only makes sense - or do people in comas drown on a regular basis?
Also, Terri's earlier (many years ago) swallow tests were all negative.
That makes sense to me as well. You could swallow saliva and still not recognize food or fluids were in your mouth if fed.
And, no, people in comas do not all drool, unless you place them face down or in a position where the saliva will follow gravity.
Which makes me wonder even more. Is Dr Stevens incompetent or a liar? And if it is incompetence, why are there no other medical professionals in that organization correcting the errors? Clearly they prefer their contrived cause over their claimed beliefs. |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 03/26/2005 17:07:20 |
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