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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
 Posted - 04/23/2005 : 14:11:15
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OK, sorry to beat the almost dead horse but my action genes have been activated by Dave's thread. Here is what Moveon is all about.
quote:
Homepage examples:
Every night, Sinclair Broadcasting vice president Mark Hyman gives a conservative rant called "The Point" which most of Sinclair's 62 stations are required to air during their local news. "The Point" predictably attacks Democrats and progressives while praising George Bush. No counterpoint is offered. Our friends at Media Matters for America are spearheading a campaign to demand balance on Sinclair's evening news by telling Every night, Sinclair Broadcasting vice president Mark Hyman gives a conservative rant called "The Point" which most of Sinclair's 62 stations are required to air during their local news. "The Point" predictably attacks Democrats and progressives while praising George Bush. No counterpoint is offered. Our friends at Media Matters for America are spearheading a campaign to demand balance on Sinclair's evening news by telling Sinclair's advertisers about the partisanship they're supporting.Sinclair's advertisers about the partisanship they're supporting.
Uncovered: The Whole Truth about the Iraq War
Lieutenant General William E. Odom, U.S. Army (Ret .) This is far graver than Vietnam. There wasn't as much at stake strategically, though in both cases we mindlessly went ahead with the war that was not constructive for US aims. But now we're in a region far more volatile, and we're in much worse shape with our allies." How did we get into this mess? Check out the documentary that MoveOn.org helped launch.
MoveOn's "50 Ways to Love Your Country"
How to Find Your Political Voice and Become a Catalyst for Change Written by MoveOn members across the country, from Hawaii to Maine, from political figures to teachers, this collection of essays shares compelling personal stories and action items with resources for taking inspiration a step further. 50 Ways to Love Your Country answers the question that more and more citizens are asking: "What can I do?" Also available on CD, MP3-CD and as an audio download.
Moveon victories
MoveOn members have been instrumental in winning numerous policy victories, on issues ranging from voting technology to marriage equality, and from protecting old-growth forests to repudiating the torture of prisoners of war.
Recent MoveOn.org Victories
FCC Backs Down from Efforts to Loosen Media Ownership Rules
(January 2005)
In 2003, more than 375,000 MoveOn members joined the fight against these pro-corporate rules. No one expected such public upset, and the courts sent the rules back to the Federal Communications Commission for reconsideration last summer. On January 28, the Bush Justice Department finally decided not to appeal the court's decision -- signaling an incredible victory for grassroots activists who rose up against more media consolidation.
36 Senators Object to Gonzales' Confirmation as Attorney General
(January 2005)
In what was originally expected to be an uncontroversial vote, 35 Democrats and 1 independent voted against the confirmation of Alberto Gonzales, raising pointed questions about his role laying the legal groundwork for the Abu Ghraib torture scandal. The dissenting votes Gonzales was confirmed by just 60-36 -- the second most "no" votes for any confirmed attorney general in history. (The first was Ashcroft.) MoveOn members played a major role in getting this on the radar, making it a referendum on torture and generating a real opposition.
House Ethics Reversal
(January 2005)
House Republicans wa
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2005 : 19:20:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
OK, sorry to beat the almost dead horse but my action genes have been activated by Dave's thread. Here is what Moveon is all about.
Well, let's give 'em a fair shake...quote:
"The Point" predictably attacks Democrats and progressives while praising George Bush. No counterpoint is offered. Our friends at Media Matters for America are spearheading a campaign to demand balance on Sinclair's evening news by telling Sinclair's advertisers about the partisanship they're supporting.
Okay, Moveon.org ("MO" from now on) is either anti-conservative or pro-equal time. Can't really tell from this, but I can get behind it either way.quote:
Uncovered: The Whole Truth about the Iraq War
MO is anti-Iraq war. I can get behind that.quote:
MoveOn's "50 Ways to Love Your Country"
MO attempts to create activists (of any particular "breed"?). See note (A) below.quote:
FCC Backs Down from Efforts to Loosen Media Ownership Rules (January 2005)
MO is anti-corporate greed. A good position.quote:
36 Senators Object to Gonzales' Confirmation as Attorney General (January 2005)
MO is anti-torture. I am, also.quote:
House Ethics Reversal (January 2005)
MO lays claim to an unsettled issue. This bone of contention is still being flayed about, and as a result, the Ethics Committee hasn't been able to meet at all. I think this is a more serious breach of the citizen's trust than would have been dropping the DeLay issue until he is indicted. I can't support that sort of crap.quote:
MoveOn Members Help Provide Tsunami Relief (December 2004)
I can donate for disaster relief without MO's help. The ten-fold increase in aid for the tsunami that MO is laying claim to was still ridiculously small, in my opinion. I see no reason for them to be particularly happy about this.quote:
CA Law Requires Voter-Verified Paper Ballots (September 2004)
I'm not convinced that these sorts of measures prevent (MO's word) fraud or electronic tampering. I'm not even sure that electronic tampering, failures and fraud were/are a threat to the citizens more dire than the political parties themselves.quote:
Victory on Overtime Pay Vote (September 2004)
"Ovetime isn't safe yet," MO writes, yet they claim "victory." These people are no better than the goddammed Republicans.quote:
The "Federal Marriage Amendment" Stopped (July 2004)
MO lays claim to stopping something which probably would have died on its own. Bravo. Give me a call when MO gets the Defense of Marriage Act repealed.quote:
The U.S. Senate Repudiated Torture (June 2004)
MO has been anti-torture for a while. Good for them.quote:
Old Growth Forest Protected From Clearcutting (June 2004)
MO is anti-clearcutting. I agree with that.quote:
Unfair Budget Stopped (June 2004)
Seems to me - on the surface - that it would have been nicer if MO had just gotten the unfair part of the budget cut out by Congress. Instead, they trashed the whole thing. Whatever happened to that budget, anyway? It's obvious we've got one, since the government is functioning.
And on to the "Archives:"quote:
Say No to Torture
Yes, I know already.quote:
How to Help with Tsunami Relief
Ditto.quote:
Share the Holiday Spirit with Those in Harm's Way
Interesting projects I knew nothing about. Now that I do, I'll look for them. Thanks, MO.quote:
Investigate the Vote
...
Members of Congress are demanding an investigation to answer this question.
Is MO laying claim to pushing "members of Congress" to do this, or do those members just happen to be annoyed Democrats, anyway?quote:
Taking on Fox
MO and about a zillion bloggers do this every day. Even the SFN does this. When Outfoxed plays in theaters like Michael Moore's latest did, that will be something MO can be proud of. Until then, it seems to me to be a waste of MO member's money.
Onto the PAC:quote:
5 Days to Save the Courts
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Overnight, some of our most treasured rights, like the 40-hour work week, basic environmental |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2005 : 23:09:45 [Permalink]
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The primary function of MO (thanks Dave, made me chuckle there) is politics. Organized under IRS code 501(c)(4).
https://www.moveon.org/donatec4/creditcard.html
They can accept any ammount of money from a single doner. They claim not to use that money to support federal candidates. Which means that they spend this money on state and local candidates AND indirect support of candidates by advocating a stance on certain issues. Their PAC, which can accept $5k/year per person, does the federal candidate work. Not sure how their PAC is currently organized, as they do not say.
Again, unlimited money flowing into political campaigns in this way is wrong. All organizations that do it need to be shut down. The rules need to be changed. This type of soft money into our politics is damaging to the country because it allows the wealthy an undue ammount of influence over political campaigns and the behavior of candidates.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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bloody_peasant
Skeptic Friend
USA
139 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2005 : 06:55:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Again, unlimited money flowing into political campaigns in this way is wrong. All organizations that do it need to be shut down. The rules need to be changed. This type of soft money into our politics is damaging to the country because it allows the wealthy an undue ammount of influence over political campaigns and the behavior of candidates.
Here here!!
While we may agree with many of MO's main agenda items in principle, I agree with Dude & Dave W. These types of institutions are definitely bad for any hopes of a good democratic constitutional republic that truly represents its constituents. Any type of institution that allows unlimited dollars to flow into it for political purposes grants way too much power to the wealthy.
A simple low cap combined with an effective enforcement program could fix this. Also neuter all corporate power. Individuals can make contributions, but no corporations or any other legal entity can. Only living breathing humans. With such limits it doesn't matter as much if the 5 people who support radical lobby group X are billionaires or paupers when all they can muster for it is $500.00 / year.
These restrictions would apply to any organization that collects money or makes money in any way to promote political activities. If your neighborhood church or atheist club crosses the line then immediately it would fall under the caps per individual plus pay fines to make up for past transgressions.
I think you could allow lobby groups, PAC's, etc. as vehicles for organization, but caps would apply to them as well. The trouble is effective enforcement of the rules. I could see lots of ways people could attempt to skirt the rules. |
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bloody_peasant
Skeptic Friend
USA
139 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2005 : 06:57:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by bloody_peasant
quote:
Again, unlimited money flowing into political campaigns in this way is wrong. All organizations that do it need to be shut down. The rules need to be changed. This type of soft money into our politics is damaging to the country because it allows the wealthy an undue ammount of influence over political campaigns and the behavior of candidates.
Here here!!
While we may agree with many of MO's main agenda items in principle, I agree with Dude & Dave W. These types of institutions are definitely bad for any hopes of a good democratic constitutional republic that truly represents its constituents. Any type of institution that allows unlimited dollars to flow into it for political purposes grants way too much power to the wealthy.
A simple low cap combined with an effective enforcement program could fix this. Also neuter all corporate power. Individuals can make contributions, but no corporations or any other legal entity can. Only living breathing humans. With such limits it doesn't matter as much if the 5 people who support radical lobby group X are billionaires or paupers when all they can muster for it is $500.00 / year.
These restrictions would apply to any organization that collects money or makes money in any way to promote political activities. If your neighborhood church or atheist club crosses the line then immediately it would fall under the caps per individual plus pay fines to make up for past transgressions.
I think you could allow lobby groups, PAC's, etc. as vehicles for organization, but caps would apply to them as well. The trouble is effective enforcement of the rules. I could see lots of ways people could attempt to skirt the rules.
Edited to add:
Without sweeping changes I don't see how any "side" in this issue can disarm sadly. Sadly its coming down to fighting fire with fire and only the people are getting burned. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2005 : 07:02:25 [Permalink]
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I've been on their e-mailing list since the 527 "Swift Boat Goddamned Liars for Bush" flap.
They're Pro-fairplay. They tend to select issues which are of interest to liberal socials/conservative economics such as myself.
So far, they have attacked
1) Tom Delay's threatening of the judiciary and his ethical lapses
2) 527 "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth(tm)"
3) Sinclair media starting with the "documentary" showing of the "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth(tm)" position on John Kerry's Vietnam service
4) The idiotic attack on filibustering by Republicans
5) The poorly written and legislatively questionable Terri Schiavo law
6) Florida election problems. Specifically an attempt to educate voters on their rights and procedures to document election tampering to the FEC
7) Support of the troops by asking questions of the government and a request to fully fund the proper equipment for troops
8) Urging Congress to defeat far right judical candidates like Janice Brown
9) Calls for the Bush administration to be censured for misleading information about the Iraq war, calls for Rumsfeld to be fired, calls for Rice to fully cooperate with senate investigations. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2005 : 07:43:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
The primary function of MO (thanks Dave, made me chuckle there)...
Well, my first thought was to use all three initials from MoveOn.org, but the jokes there would have been far too obvious. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2005 : 08:32:19 [Permalink]
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Valiant,
I agree with MO on almost every issue they advocate. I was just using them as an example of the soft money problem. I can't get behind them and really support them for this reason.
All organizations, left and right, that can accept unlimited funds and use them for political purposes, need to be done away with.... is all I'm saying.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2005 : 09:10:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Dude:
All organizations, left and right, that can accept unlimited funds and use them for political purposes, need to be done away with.... is all I'm saying.
True. And the laws need to be changed.
In the meantime however, should I give the other side an unfair advantage by not supporting pac's that fight for those things I believe in? I have been pondering that question. While I fully support caps on donations, or a complete revamping of the entire system of funding campaigns and special interest concerns, am I contributing to the perpetuation a bad system by taking part in it?
I keep thinking, the other side is probably ignoring this ethical dilemma because they are better funded and the system works for them.
Do I support MO because my money will at least add some balance to this unbalanced system? Or do I stand on principal because I think PAC's are wrong in their present form and possibly shoot myself in the foot on causes I believe in because of a cause I believe in?
As a pragmatist my inclination is to throw them my support (money) and at the same time work for change.
What to do, what to do?
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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bloody_peasant
Skeptic Friend
USA
139 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2005 : 10:31:31 [Permalink]
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Kil
quote:
As a pragmatist my inclination is to throw them my support (money) and at the same time work for change.
Yep this has been nagging me as well :<. Its a damned if you do, damned if you don't kinda situation. Its kinda like shrill negative campaign ads. They sure do work, but they sure make you feel like a dirty SOB hyporcrite if you use it. Then again the otherside will skewer your ass with them if you don't join in. Arghhhh There's nothing I hate more than being forced into a hypocritical position. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2005 : 11:19:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
Valiant,
I agree with MO on almost every issue they advocate. I was just using them as an example of the soft money problem. I can't get behind them and really support them for this reason.
All organizations, left and right, that can accept unlimited funds and use them for political purposes, need to be done away with.... is all I'm saying.
Abso-frickin-loutley. They are part of the soft money problem, just like the 527's. If someone is using political dirty tricks, I'd like them to have to allign with the political party or candidate directly. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2005 : 11:44:14 [Permalink]
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| How about taking the initiative for a 527, which has ending 527's as a goal? |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2005 : 13:30:39 [Permalink]
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Wow! I am going to have to take the board members' skepticism here and take a closer look. However, what I see with Moveon isn't what their site claims to have accomplished, the way they are financed, nor the usual requests for donations, but rather, a link to other people. It's a conduit for gathering momentum, for rallying the masses.
There were ~100,000 people protesting at the Republican Convention in New York last year, not because the rally was discussed in the daily news ahead of time, nor because the information was pushed by an organized group. Instead it was because the thing was planned and executed via the Internet connections.
I will be going to our local Congressman's office tomorrow with other Democrats from the area in an organized "meetup" to let the Congressman know we do not support the President's SS plan. There is a massive effort by Moveon to stop the religious fanatic judges from being appointed to the Federal Courts. So far I wrote letters to the paper editors but so have thousands of other people because of Moveon's organization.
Let me digest Dave's post a bit more and I'll get back to this.
Also, whether we fail or not, the effort is growing and what else do you propose besides not trying? |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 04/25/2005 13:31:33 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2005 : 13:43:05 [Permalink]
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| Please note, beskeptigal, that I support political activism, and I support many of MO's goals. I haven't examined MO in detail (just what you posted), but if there is a way I can support particular MO efforts without supporting MO as a whole, I would try to carve out time to do so. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2005 : 13:58:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Please note, beskeptigal, that I support political activism, and I support many of MO's goals. I haven't examined MO in detail (just what you posted), but if there is a way I can support particular MO efforts without supporting MO as a whole, I would try to carve out time to do so.
That's OK. I appreciate posts like yours. They make you either better at defining your issue or to see things about the issue you may not have noticed.
So, if you want to help, take the next step:quote:
Next: we still expect a vote this week on judicial appointments. So on Wednesday, thousands of us will gather at emergency rallies across the nation to send a clear message: Americans want fair judges, not extremists appointed to favor corporate interests and right-wing fringe groups. Sign up now:
Go here to sign up or find a rally you can attend.
The judge thing is the next big step religious extremists are taking to change the fundamentals of our democracy. The webcast with Bill Frist yesterday was absolutely frightening.
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| Edited by - beskeptigal on 04/25/2005 13:59:40 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2005 : 16:41:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
The judge thing is the next big step religious extremists are taking to change the fundamentals of our democracy. The webcast with Bill Frist yesterday was absolutely frightening.
The people that Frist is pandering to for votes these days are frigtening. They want extremist christians appointed to as many judicial seats as possible.
But I still won't be giving MO any money.
The soft money problem is the reason WHY the republicans are in a position to force this issue by banning the filibuster on judicial nominees.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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