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trishran
Skeptic Friend
USA
196 Posts |
 Posted - 05/03/2005 : 20:21:46
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Now, my understanding of churches is informed not only by 6 years of catholic school, but also taking some theology classes in college [trying to figure out what they were trying to do to me] Anyway, here goes:
According to the Catholic Church, the afterlife is the entire goal of existance. This world is not only temporary, but dangerous, full of temptations to sin, full of un-righted wrongs, suffering, pain, and ultimately death - not only our own death, but the separation from loved ones. The most holy thing to do is to withdraw from this world, ideally in a cloistered situation. Getting too entangled in the world is an invitation to corruption and sin. Plus, the evils and temptations of the world are so great that they can never be eliminated.
So, why are they organized to do political work? Why do they try to influence the operation of schools, governments and so on? Isn't this just asking for trouble? If those of us who don't subscribe to their beliefs are wallowing in sin and decadance, what's it to them, anyway?
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trish |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2005 : 20:39:15 [Permalink]
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I don't have an answer... In my country Catholics lives in the shadow of various protestantic churches. One would think that the message of selfless love and taking care of your neighbours would promt christians to vote left, but in most European countries Christian Democratic Parties are right of centre.
I always thought that socialistic parties were the natural choice for a True(tm) Christian. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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trishran
Skeptic Friend
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2005 : 21:02:54 [Permalink]
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The early church was totally socialistic, sharing everything. But once Jesus didn't return to earth on schedule, they went greedy and totalitarian [not instantly, of course]
On the West Coast of the U.S. the churches seem definitely right of center, even the ones that look counterculture, where people wear shorts to church. It's so amazing how *mean* the attitude has gotten. For example, sick people are no longer pitied, treated gently and maybe helped. Sick people are sick because they "need to learn this lesson." Or, if they had real faith, the disease would be cured. This works for poverty, too. Of course, the rich, healthy people obviously don't need these lessons, so they can be smug around the afflicted. That's what passes for "christian love" in these parts nowadays.
Then there's the old "give 'em a fish" arguement, but instead of teaching the poor sap to fish, you just "tut tut" that he hadn't bothered to learn to fish by now, then say giving him a fish would be "sending the wrong message."
In America, lack of national health insurance, job security, secure pensions and affordable housing is defended as a "carrot and stick" approach to get the most/best productivity out of workers. But consider this, people whose performance is vital, military personnel, aren't forced to subsist in overpriced housing on minimum wage [yes, I know veterans are being given the short end, and I am appalled, but even they are better off than people who have no access to VA hospitals].
I am also stunned at how many people, who themselves are suffering because of high prices,low wages, no insurance, begrudge these things for others, especially if it seems the "gubmint" will be coughing up the dough. People write vicious letters to the editor about the pension system for public employees in Oregon, forgetting how many times that pension adjustments were made in lieu of raises or cost of living increases. "How dare the state give these people pensions when so many other workers don't have them?" Well, why not do what the public employees did to get those pensions - form a union and negotiate a contract, no mystery there. |
trish |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2005 : 23:15:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
One would think that the message of selfless love and taking care of your neighbours would promt christians to vote left,
LOL!
Good one, Dr. Mabuse!
"For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath." -- Matt 13:12, 25:29 |
"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
| Edited by - Starman on 05/03/2005 23:35:40 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2005 : 01:50:54 [Permalink]
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The goals of all religions are the same as for any organization: growth, authority, and perpetuation of policy. Here in the US, they're working hard on the second and third, but I wonder if, a generation or so down the road, the first might not start stagnating, if it hasn't already.
The poll linked in this in thread was interesting. I think that it demonstrated that, while the vast majority professed religion, only a minority were "off the deep end," as it were and it looked like many were a little soft on it. Had it been taken a century or longer ago, the results would have been quite different.
"If you're not a born-again Christian, you're a failure as a human being." -- Jerry Falwell
No one but severly benighted actually believes in that sort of flannel-mouthed rhetoric, but enough of the various churchs spew it anyway, that, I've read, attendence is not growing much if any, as compared to the general population. I have further read that Catholism is waning a bit in Europe. I rather doubt that this new super-conservative Pope will turn that around; quite the contrary.
Quite the contrary.... Whether they like it or not, and Fawell, Dobson, Robertson Terry, Benedict-whatever-number, and the ilk do not, the 14th Century is in the past and can be returned to only in literature.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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trishran
Skeptic Friend
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2005 : 12:02:51 [Permalink]
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Here's some happy reading: The Happy Heretic, Judith Hayes [both her website and book have the same title. Haven't looked at the site yet, and am halfway thru the book]
Two quotes from the book:
"The Internet is having an amazing impact on religion and religions are not happy about it. They are having a much more difficult time hiding their dirty laundry. Child-molesting priests are being ferreted out like earwigs under a wet rock. The 'submit graciously' thing swept around the world in a flash and was emt with worldwide derision. News travels fast on the Internet. And it is that very speed of communication that may soon spell big trouble for religions."
"Now if you apply this breathtaking speed and ease of communication to religion, it gets a bit dicey for religious leaders to keep their flocks controlled. It's much harder now to claim that you have sole access to the ear of the One True God. There are just too many One True Gods out there, and they're all bumping into each other on the Internet. And out children are watching the collisions. This, I believe, may spell the beginning of the end of many religions."
["The submit graciously thing" refers to the Baptists "affirming" that women are required to submit graciously to all the demands of their husbands.]
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trish |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2005 : 02:18:51 [Permalink]
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| I think you'd have to look into social movement waxing and waning to understand the big push for religious political activism. I suspect some influencing facts are that public school science contradicts the Bible belt beliefs, and the split between red and blue in the country which the right exploited/manipulated the red area's religious base are two major influences. There are probably many other underlying reasons for what's going on. It's happened before, it'll go away again. But I sure wish it would go away sooner rather than later. |
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sweetmiracle
Skeptic Friend
USA
74 Posts |
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