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trishran
Skeptic Friend

USA
196 Posts

Posted - 05/03/2005 :  21:29:33  Show Profile Send trishran a Private Message
Now that we, as a society know that child molesters a not so much the dirty old man in a trenchcoat, as a youth pastor, coach, scout leader, and such, why do we as a society act like "more youth Programs" is the answer for child safety? Arent we just creating more positions for such creepy adults to fill?

When I was a kid, adults considered it their job to sort of watch out for the neighborhood, but the kids spent a lot of time hanging out in backyards in a group. We were told to walk to and from school in groups, not alone.

I have friends with kids who say they are afraid to let their kids ride their bikes, for fear of the kids being abducted. They seem to think that it's super common for strangers to snatch kids. I usually use a line like, "You know why the media keep talking about only 2 or 3 missing kids? Not because they're the most famous missing kids, because they are the only kids in the country abducted by strangers."

So, to protect kids from the imaginary danger of stranger abductions, we allow them to suffer the real danger of inactivity-induced obesity.

trish

BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 05/04/2005 :  04:57:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message
^Ditto.

Reminds me of the quip from Bowling for Columbine, where he says that only 2 children have ever been poisened by Halloween candy and both intentionally by family members.

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist

USA
4954 Posts

Posted - 05/04/2005 :  06:15:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cuneiformist a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf

^Ditto.

Reminds me of the quip from Bowling for Columbine, where he says that only 2 children have ever been poisened by Halloween candy and both intentionally by family members.



Really? So the scare about the poison/razor blades, etc. back in the late 80's (remember how groups would offer to x-ray (!) your candy to see if there was shit in it?) was all bunk?
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Wendy
SFN Regular

USA
614 Posts

Posted - 05/04/2005 :  07:07:02   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Wendy a Yahoo! Message Send Wendy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist


Really? So the scare about the poison/razor blades, etc. back in the late 80's (remember how groups would offer to x-ray (!) your candy to see if there was shit in it?) was all bunk?


Sure looks that way. Here's a link to Urban Legends Reference Pages on the subject - complete with references. It seems most of these cases were intended to target particular children, but appear random. From the article:
quote:
Though I've yet to find evidence of a genuine Halloween poisoning, I have uncovered a few isolated incidents initially reported as random poisonings that, upon further investigation, turned out to be something else.

Let's set the criteria for what constitutes a Halloween poisoning and then examine the famous and not-so-famous cases often pointed to as examples of this horror.

To qualify as a Halloween poisoning, poisoned candy has to be handed out on a random basis to children as part of the trick-or-treating ritual inherent to Halloween. The act cannot be targeted to any one specific child.


There's also a link to a Jack Chick tract.

Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist

USA
4954 Posts

Posted - 05/04/2005 :  07:30:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cuneiformist a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Wendy

quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist


Really? So the scare about the poison/razor blades, etc. back in the late 80's (remember how groups would offer to x-ray (!) your candy to see if there was shit in it?) was all bunk?


Sure looks that way. Here's a link to Urban Legends Reference Pages on the subject - complete with references. It seems most of these cases were intended to target particular children, but appear random. From the article:
quote:
Though I've yet to find evidence of a genuine Halloween poisoning, I have uncovered a few isolated incidents initially reported as random poisonings that, upon further investigation, turned out to be something else.

Let's set the criteria for what constitutes a Halloween poisoning and then examine the famous and not-so-famous cases often pointed to as examples of this horror.

To qualify as a Halloween poisoning, poisoned candy has to be handed out on a random basis to children as part of the trick-or-treating ritual inherent to Halloween. The act cannot be targeted to any one specific child.


There's also a link to a Jack Chick tract.
Good work, Wendy. Next Halloween, I'm going all out. Except that I'm over 30. But only just-- I could pass for 25. Which makes me about 10 years too old. Oh well. I think I'll just go buy some mini Butterfinger bars and gorge myself on them. Take that Halloween pranksters!
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 05/04/2005 :  08:44:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
Ah Halloween. All of the kids around here know me and approach my door with great caution, often with their parents snickering in the background.

One year, I answered the door wrapped in a 9 foot Burmese python.

But my very best effort was when I was keeping 1/2 dozen, juvenile, white throat monitor lizards for a friend. I had set up and liberly stocked a colony of Madagascar hissing cockroachs to feed them. That evening, I put a quanity of the roaches in a bowl near the door, and when the kids showed up, I'd grab a handful and put them in my beard just before opening it. The effect was most gratifying.....

On the other hand, I am generous with the goodies. Last year, I made jerky just for Halloween give-outs

I know of exactly one person who intentionly injured children on Halloween. This happened back in the '50s. The maniac heated a big pan of pennies on the stove, and each child who held his/her hand out for some got a scoop dumped in the palm. Fortunatly, he only got a couple of kids before the neighbors beat the shit out of him while waiting on the cops.


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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trishran
Skeptic Friend

USA
196 Posts

Posted - 05/10/2005 :  19:12:54   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send trishran a Private Message
That horrible crime in Zion, Michigan, where the two little girls were murdered on Mother's day brings this issue to the fore again. Today on Court TV, an investigator used this case as another example of why we can't let kids ride their bikes and roam freely in their neighborhoods - and this after the arrest of the father of one of the girls was announced. Why keep kids in the house? Isn't that where abusive parents are found?

I feel like the advice to not let kids roam freely is de-populating our backyards, streets and parks. Not only is this sad, it isolates kids, and decreases the number of people in public places, essentially ceding our public spaces to criminals. The more people around in public offer more opportunities for crimes to be discouraged or reported by witnesses.

It seems to me that if there are cautions to be taken from this sad tale, they would be:

1. be careful who you reproduce with
2. check out the parents of your child's friends - also, [tangentially related] ask kids'friends' parents if there are guns in the home and how they are stored.

There was a case in Oregon this week in which a couple went to their vacation house, which had been secretly occupied by a criminal who used a gun the couple kept stored in the vacation house to abduct them. Fortunately, they escaped from him in Nevada.

trish
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 05/11/2005 :  13:37:17   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist

quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf

^Ditto.

Reminds me of the quip from Bowling for Columbine, where he says that only 2 children have ever been poisened by Halloween candy and both intentionally by family members.



Really? So the scare about the poison/razor blades, etc. back in the late 80's (remember how groups would offer to x-ray (!) your candy to see if there was shit in it?) was all bunk?

The razor blades started much earlier than the 80s. I believe it would have been as early as the mid or late 60s. Throwing eggs started about then as well.
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 05/11/2005 :  13:43:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by trishran

...
It seems to me that if there are cautions to be taken from this sad tale, they would be:

1. be careful who you reproduce with
2. check out the parents of your child's friends - also, [tangentially related] ask kids'friends' parents if there are guns in the home and how they are stored.

There was a case in Oregon this week in which a couple went to their vacation house, which had been secretly occupied by a criminal who used a gun the couple kept stored in the vacation house to abduct them. Fortunately, they escaped from him in Nevada.

Gun supporters ignore stats but most gun deaths, in kids anyway, are from guns in the home not guns from criminal assaults. There may be an exception in high murder rate inner cities but even that I'm not sure of. It is the gun in the house that poses the danger.

On a side note because I just have to give advice to everyone all the time, , I have always told my son to make up a fake excuse about having to leave if someone got a gun out. That way he wouldn't have to stay out of peer pressure. I'm not aware it ever happened and I don't know if my tactic would ever matter, but I think not giving kids the means of resisting peer pressure makes your words of advice meaningless.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13467 Posts

Posted - 05/11/2005 :  14:01:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by trishran

Now that we, as a society know that child molesters a not so much the dirty old man in a trenchcoat, as a youth pastor, coach, scout leader, and such, why do we as a society act like "more youth Programs" is the answer for child safety? Arent we just creating more positions for such creepy adults to fill?

When I was a kid, adults considered it their job to sort of watch out for the neighborhood, but the kids spent a lot of time hanging out in backyards in a group. We were told to walk to and from school in groups, not alone.

I have friends with kids who say they are afraid to let their kids ride their bikes, for fear of the kids being abducted. They seem to think that it's super common for strangers to snatch kids. I usually use a line like, "You know why the media keep talking about only 2 or 3 missing kids? Not because they're the most famous missing kids, because they are the only kids in the country abducted by strangers."

So, to protect kids from the imaginary danger of stranger abductions, we allow them to suffer the real danger of inactivity-induced obesity.



Hold on here. You say that creating youth programs is putting children in jeopardy because some child molesters have been priests, coaches and scout leaders, and not the cliché trench coat brand of creep.

Then you suggest that not too many kids are being abducted by strangers and that the media has blown that way out of proportion.

So, are you saying that the media has not blown both of these things out of proportion? How news worthy was the McMartin case? I just don't get where you are coming from. Are you suggesting that there is such a high percentage of child molesters working youth programs that it is reasonable to argue against the benefits of these programs? Please cite because I think your supposition is baloney.

Edited to add:

I do agree that we have become over protective of our children. The solution is to educate the kids on what to look for. There are warning signs that parents and counselors should teach our children. Ultimately it is up to the kids to recognize and remove themselves from potential danger.



Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 05/11/2005 :  14:11:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
quote:
Gun supporters ignore stats but most gun deaths, in kids anyway, are from guns in the home not guns from criminal assaults.


Please cite some credible reference to back the claim that gun supporters "ignore stats". Quite frankly, I think that is an irresponsible statement.

Every person I know who is a supporter of gun ownership is aware that the majority of accidental shootings that involve children are a result of the kids getting their hands on a gun they shouldn't have. i.e. Their parent's firearm. None of them "ignore stats", as you claim.

You should also be aware that there are laws on the books in many states (definitely in FL) that make the owner of a gun criminally liable for their kid, or the neighbor's kid, shooting themselves or a friend with dad's gun.

If you have kids and guns, you have a responsibility to secure them in a way that the kids can't get at them. Also, you have a responsibility to educate your children on the safe handling of a gun if they happen to find one unsecured.

If you have a personal dislike of guns, so be it. But don't warp reality to support your argument.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 05/12/2005 :  07:03:08   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal

quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist

quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf

^Ditto.

Reminds me of the quip from Bowling for Columbine, where he says that only 2 children have ever been poisened by Halloween candy and both intentionally by family members.



Really? So the scare about the poison/razor blades, etc. back in the late 80's (remember how groups would offer to x-ray (!) your candy to see if there was shit in it?) was all bunk?

The razor blades started much earlier than the 80s. I believe it would have been as early as the mid or late 60s. Throwing eggs started about then as well.



I remember being told about razor blades when I was 6 (1973). Eggs seemed popular about 1978. And then only fitfully.

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 05/12/2005 :  07:10:08   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal

quote:
Originally posted by trishran

...
It seems to me that if there are cautions to be taken from this sad tale, they would be:

1. be careful who you reproduce with
2. check out the parents of your child's friends - also, [tangentially related] ask kids'friends' parents if there are guns in the home and how they are stored.

There was a case in Oregon this week in which a couple went to their vacation house, which had been secretly occupied by a criminal who used a gun the couple kept stored in the vacation house to abduct them. Fortunately, they escaped from him in Nevada.

Gun supporters ignore stats but most gun deaths, in kids anyway, are from guns in the home not guns from criminal assaults. There may be an exception in high murder rate inner cities but even that I'm not sure of. It is the gun in the house that poses the danger.



Even the NRA recognizes and touts that a majority of gun deaths of children are the result of the parents weapon not properly secured. They advocate education about securing the weapon rather than not having the weapon.

Your assertation that gun supporters ignore stats is unsupported.

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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Wendy
SFN Regular

USA
614 Posts

Posted - 05/12/2005 :  08:02:47   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Wendy a Yahoo! Message Send Wendy a Private Message
At the risk of getting off-topic here, I have to agree with Dude and Valiant Dancer. My son often goes hunting with my brother. Initially it was just to observe, but when he asked for a .22 rifle for his birthday a couple of years ago I agreed, on the condition that he complete a hunter safety course, then go out to the woods with me to show me what he learned. He complied and I was impressed with his performance, so I bought him a .22 rifle AND a gun lock. I also told him that the first time he failed to follow a safety rule was the last time he'd see the gun. That was two years ago. He has kept it clean, unloaded (with the ammo in my possession), and locked.

I also own a gun (.32 automatic) that was a gift from my other brother when I was living alone in a very rural area with a creepy neighbor. Though it remained loaded and in my nightstand at that time, now that I have a family it is stored unloaded, separate from the ammo, and locked. I have been open with my children about its ownership and proper care and use. I have been crystal clear about how harsh their punishment will be if they ever handle it outside my presence.

Of course, parents can't be everywhere. beskeptigal, I think teaching your son to leave someone's home when a gun comes out is an excellent safety measure and one I plan to discuss with my own children today. It's also important (as has been said) to meet the families of our children's friends.

When I was pregnant with my first child an old lady walked up to me in a shopping mall and asked if she could feel the baby move. I was a bit put off by it at the time, but I let her. She then told me that raising a child is like holding a wet bar of soap - too loose and you drop it, too tight and it shoots right out of your hand. I've been using that advice for almost sixteen years, and it's the best advice anyone has ever given me.

Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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