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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 06/01/2005 :  05:29:27  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message
LONDON, Kentucky (AP) -- A Kentucky judge has been offering some drug and alcohol offenders the option of attending worship services instead of going to jail or rehab -- a practice some say violates the separation of church and state.

From www.cnn.com

Of course its not promoting religion according to the judge.

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini

filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 06/01/2005 :  05:43:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
David Friedman, a lawyer for the American Civil Liberties Union of Kentucky, said the option raises "serious constitutional problems."

"The judge is saying that those willing to go to worship services can avoid jail in the same way that those who decline to go cannot," Friedman said. "That strays from government neutrality towards religion."

Indeed. It further raises the question of: what if the offender is not a Christian? Does this mean that no one but Christians may take advantage of it, or must people of other beliefs or no beliefs go to Christian services? Is this judge also trying to do evangelical work from the bench?


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Wendy
SFN Regular

USA
614 Posts

Posted - 06/01/2005 :  06:32:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Wendy a Yahoo! Message Send Wendy a Private Message
This is my home turf. I can drive to London from my house in less than half an hour. London recently went "moist" and all the bible thumpers are pretty upset about it. I'm sure this Judge thinks he's found a great way to wield the hand of God. Since it does (in my opinion) violate the separation of church and state, I hope that hand gets smacked real soon.

Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 06/01/2005 :  06:42:29   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Wendy

This is my home turf. I can drive to London from my house in less than half an hour. London recently went "moist" and all the bible thumpers are pretty upset about it. I'm sure this Judge thinks he's found a great way to wield the hand of God. Since it does (in my opinion) violate the separation of church and state, I hope that hand gets smacked real soon.


Apparently, the ACLU is all over it and soon Hizzoner will either undergo a change of mind or find himself involved in a court case that he is not presiding over. It'll be fun to watch, but I don't think it'll last long.

But never fear: the Double-Dipped will quickly bounce back with yet more nonsense. They always do...


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 06/01/2005 :  06:48:50   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Wendy

This is my home turf. I can drive to London from my house in less than half an hour. London recently went "moist" and all the bible thumpers are pretty upset about it. I'm sure this Judge thinks he's found a great way to wield the hand of God. Since it does (in my opinion) violate the separation of church and state, I hope that hand gets smacked real soon.




Wendy, I am unfamiliar with the term "moist" in this context. Could you elaborate on the term?

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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Wendy
SFN Regular

USA
614 Posts

Posted - 06/01/2005 :  07:03:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Wendy a Yahoo! Message Send Wendy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer


Wendy, I am unfamiliar with the term "moist" in this context. Could you elaborate on the term?


No problem. It means that while the area cannot have package stores, restaurants may sell alcohol by the drink.

Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 06/01/2005 :  07:33:33   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message
Strange I didnt think their we're any 'dry' areas around.

Oh and he does say "worship services" and not Christian specifically, however its still the same. Perhaps if he said something like "Counseling, religious or otherwise..."

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist

USA
4954 Posts

Posted - 06/01/2005 :  07:34:54   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cuneiformist a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Wendy

quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer


Wendy, I am unfamiliar with the term "moist" in this context. Could you elaborate on the term?


No problem. It means that while the area cannot have package stores, restaurants may sell alcohol by the drink.
Not quite "wet" then. So, I could go order a beer with my burger and fries, but I couldn't make a burger on my grill at home and buy a six pack to go with it (without leaving London, KY)?
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist

USA
4954 Posts

Posted - 06/01/2005 :  07:38:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cuneiformist a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf

LONDON, Kentucky (AP) -- A Kentucky judge has been offering some drug and alcohol offenders the option of attending worship services instead of going to jail or rehab -- a practice some say violates the separation of church and state.

From www.cnn.com

Of course its not promoting religion according to the judge.

But isn't this the same thing with sending people to AA? If I'm not mistaken, one of the 12 steps is giving in to a "higher power"-- a thinly veiled god-reference. Unless you're willing to stretch the definition of "higher power" to include some abstract idea, it's hard to imagine how an atheist could do it.
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 06/01/2005 :  07:58:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message
Hey I never said I endorsed the 12 step program or the Boy Scouts for that matter. I was just suggesting that a non-religious alternative must be available and be equal in the eyes of the court, I know that Faith is a huge part of life in KY and dont see the need to totally divorce everything from it.

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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Wendy
SFN Regular

USA
614 Posts

Posted - 06/01/2005 :  08:33:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Wendy a Yahoo! Message Send Wendy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist

Not quite "wet" then. So, I could go order a beer with my burger and fries, but I couldn't make a burger on my grill at home and buy a six pack to go with it (without leaving London, KY)?


Exactly. And there are still dry areas out there, BigPapaSmurf. I have to drive about 60 miles to get to the nearest liquor store. I'm about 7 miles from the nearest moist area, but it just went moist last year and has only started serving drinks this Spring.

This topic has made me curious. My husband works for an agency that gets referrals from the local Court to counsel minors who have been charged with drug or alcohol related offenses. I intend to ask him if there are references to God or a higher power in the program they use.

Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 06/01/2005 :  08:35:08   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Wendy

quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer


Wendy, I am unfamiliar with the term "moist" in this context. Could you elaborate on the term?


No problem. It means that while the area cannot have package stores, restaurants may sell alcohol by the drink.




Ah, thanks.

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 06/01/2005 :  08:36:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf

Strange I didnt think their we're any 'dry' areas around.

Oh and he does say "worship services" and not Christian specifically, however its still the same. Perhaps if he said something like "Counseling, religious or otherwise..."



Yep. Sections of Oak Park, IL are dry and so is the county in Kentucky Tennessee which manufactures Jack Daniel's Whiskey.

Edited because just too many folks were correcting the state which I had erroneously listed.

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
Edited by - Valiant Dancer on 06/09/2005 06:39:41
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular

641 Posts

Posted - 06/01/2005 :  09:15:38   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send ConsequentAtheist a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer

Yep. Sections of Oak Park, IL are dry and so is the county in Kentucky which manufactures Jack Daniel's Whiskey.

There are no dry sections of Oak Park, least of all in and around OPRF.

For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D.
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bloody_peasant
Skeptic Friend

USA
139 Posts

Posted - 06/01/2005 :  09:19:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send bloody_peasant a Yahoo! Message Send bloody_peasant a Private Message
Ha I grew up in a dry county in eastern KY that is still dry. There are quite a few dry counties in eastern KY. Had to either go 2 counties over or into WV to buy.
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 06/01/2005 :  10:12:37   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message
Well I must say I had no clue about that, of course Ive never been a big drinker so I dont learn the lore of it. However I will say I am a big fan of the idea, at least in restaurants they can limit you and kids Im sure have a much tougher time about it.

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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