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the_ignored
SFN Addict

2557 Posts

Posted - 07/01/2005 :  22:52:34  Show Profile Send the_ignored a Private Message
At least according to this xian site. And these are college kids! Oy!


Can you just feel the love?

>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.

What brought that on? this. Original posting here.

Another example of this guy's lunacy here.

pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2996 Posts

Posted - 07/02/2005 :  05:35:04   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message
Wow...that changed my mind! God bless you all, you rotten ######...Jesus loves you, but not enough if you don't love him back.

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
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Siberia
SFN Addict

Brazil
2322 Posts

Posted - 07/02/2005 :  08:44:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Siberia's Homepage  Send Siberia an AOL message  Send Siberia a Yahoo! Message Send Siberia a Private Message
Yes, that definately changed my mind

"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa

"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist

USA
4954 Posts

Posted - 07/02/2005 :  09:16:02   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cuneiformist a Private Message
I am utterly amazed at the dishonesty from this section: "How atheists are encouraged to debate"

The author of the page looks at the book Art of Deception by N. Capaldi. He (the website author, not Capaldi) suggests that the book "is made by atheists for atheists and it encourages dishonest discourse, discussion, and debate." He offers examples. For instance:
quote:
Red Herring.... what happens if you feel that your defense has not been strong enough or that there are lingering doubts in the minds of the audience? At this point you should avoid sticking to the point... draw attention to a side issue where you feel particularly strong. This will give the impression that you are still in charge of the course of the discussion. (p.140)

Ad hominem. Instead of attacking the specific points of an argument, you attack the man... You tell your audience how someone falls into the trap of believing such nonsense. (p. 148)

True by definition. You can always save your position by making it true by definition. (p.151)
But what's clear is that Capalid is simply offering tactics that some people use in debate. If you are familiar with them, you can then properly address them and move the debate forward. Though I have not read Capaldi's book, I am certain the he is not suggesting that an atheist resort to ad homs and red herrings!

I will go to the book store today to find this book and read through it. If so, I will write these losers and post the exchange (assuming they even respond) here...
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the_ignored
SFN Addict

2557 Posts

Posted - 07/02/2005 :  10:50:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send the_ignored a Private Message
Good work, Cune! I was going to order that book from the library itself. Whoever gets it first should email those guys, and if your hunch is right, or even if it's not, and post any results here!

That "Frank Walton" guy posts on Theology Web.

I could just post it on Theology Web for that guy to deal with publicly perhaps.

>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.

What brought that on? this. Original posting here.

Another example of this guy's lunacy here.
Edited by - the_ignored on 07/02/2005 10:55:45
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist

USA
4954 Posts

Posted - 07/02/2005 :  11:36:12   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cuneiformist a Private Message
A follow-up the the dirty debating tactics of atheists can be found here. In particular:
quote:
Consider Robert A. Morey's 1986 book The New Atheism and the Erosion of Freedom. After complaining that "some atheists deliberately use deception to refute theism" (pg. 87), Morey cites Nicholas Capaldi's book The Art of Deception as "proof" of atheistic deception. Morey quotes page 117 of Capaldi's book thusly: "Never admit defeat... ". The only problem is that Capaldi never says this (or anything like it) on this or on any other page. Morey has numerous other false quotes attributed to Capaldi, such as: "Refuse to be convinced. Even if you feel that he has a good argument and that your case is weaker, refuse to be convinced of your opponent's case". Nowhere does Capaldi advocate, as Morey accuses him of doing, that atheists should "use any invalid or deceptive argument as long as it helps him (to) win his case". Morey concludes this amazing series of lies and defamation of character by noting that his examples provide "a small sampling of the 'dirty tricks' methodology that seems to pervade modern atheism", and that, as a consequence, "my personal experience has proven this makes rational debate with an atheist very difficult".

Morey fails to mention that, in his introduction, Capaldi specifically points out that he is writing the book "from the point of view of one who wishes to deceive, mislead, or manipulate others" (pg. 12). His reason for this novel approach is that he thinks it makes his readers more able to recognize this strategy in others. While one may quarrel with this method, ignoring it altogether and giving false, out of context quotes, as Morey does, constitutes dishonesty of a most egregious kind.

However, Morey has an "out". There are no actual quotation marks on these alleged quotes. Yet, they are separated from the main text and page numbers are given, thus giving the appearance of being actual quotes. In addition, the use of ellipses, as in the first quote, gives the definite impression that the citation is an actual quote rather than a paraphrase. The "dirty tricks methodology" that Morey attributes to atheists certainly apply to Robert Morey.
Something fishy is going on here with these guys and I intend to get to the bottom of it...
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25997 Posts

Posted - 07/02/2005 :  17:14:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
Don't miss "The Real Murderers: Atheism or Christianity?" The author, Gregory Koukl, gives the standard theistic "no true Christian" excuse, with all the grisly stuff done by people who aren't really Christians, but talk as if they are. Of course, he's not Christian enough to apply the same rationale to atheists.

In fact, it is atheism itself which gets blamed for, say, the Cambodian messiness between 1975 and 1979. Koukl quotes the Guiness Book of World Records,
...execution by bayonet and club was introduced for such offenses as falling asleep during the day, asking too many questions, playing non-communist music, being old and feeble, being the offspring of an undesirable, or being too well educated.
As if these "offenses" have anything to do with the "central tenets" of atheism. In fact, they have nothing to do with atheism, and everything to do with a megalomaniac dictator.

Offenses by Christians in the name of God, on the other hand, have to be considered much worse, since such horrors as the Crusades and the Inquisitions are diametrically opposed to the teachings of the religion.

Note also everything Koukl leaves out. No mention of Ireland, Waco, Jim Jones or the KKK, for just a few examples. The total number of people killed in the name of some god or other is much higher than the author would want to admit, and the crimes he attributes to atheism aren't due to atheism.

And even though he hasn't killed anyone, I wonder how Koukl feels about sharing a religion with the likes of Fred Phelps.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25997 Posts

Posted - 07/03/2005 :  00:47:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
Thinking about the things Cune has brought up, I can only wonder, is Dr. Capaldi an atheist? Obviously, if he isn't, then the premise of the unsigned atheismsucks review is just blowing smoke with the "by atheists for atheists" stuff.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 07/03/2005 :  03:10:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.

Thinking about the things Cune has brought up, I can only wonder, is Dr. Capaldi an atheist? Obviously, if he isn't, then the premise of the unsigned atheismsucks review is just blowing smoke with the "by atheists for atheists" stuff.

<shrugs> Just blowing smoke, or maybe passing gas depending on how you look at it. I found it a mildly amusing blurt by some kids who's minds have fallen into a fundamantalist rut. One hopes they'll clamber out with advancing maturity, but they probably won't.

A quick glance at Dr. Capaldi's schools and lists of publishings show that he is certainly not an atheist, and so what? He has added nothing to the 'rules' of debate for anyone. Most if not all of the OP's link can be found here.

I/we have noticed, here and elsewhere, that these are used far more by theists than atheists, especally when arguing the ToE. The reason is simple; beyond spouting Bible quotes and unfounded speculation, it's all that they have. Kinda sad, when you think about it...


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 07/06/2005 :  18:08:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message
Hmmm... now I understand why some people put "Mean People Suck" bumper stickers on their cars.

I was intrigued by the "You Might Be An Atheist Fundy If..." section, because whoever wrote it has obviously spent a great deal more time investigating the arguments for atheism than I have ever spend investigating the arguments for any religion I wanted to make fun of.

Except for the parts that were just plain mean, most of the list could actually be an amusing list (change to "You Might Be An Atheist If") for us nontheists to laugh at ourselves, which would also be more in the spirit of Jeff Foxworthy's jokes.

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

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walt fristoe
SFN Regular

USA
505 Posts

Posted - 07/11/2005 :  18:53:38   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send walt fristoe a Private Message
I expect that if Christianity were true it wouldn't need apologists, now would it?

"If God chose George Bus of all the people in the world, how good could God be?"
Bill Maher
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walt fristoe
SFN Regular

USA
505 Posts

Posted - 07/11/2005 :  19:07:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send walt fristoe a Private Message
What does "God as a reality in their lives" even mean?

"If God chose George Bus of all the people in the world, how good could God be?"
Bill Maher
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walt fristoe
SFN Regular

USA
505 Posts

Posted - 07/11/2005 :  19:11:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send walt fristoe a Private Message
I don't think that "all Christians are lying, conniving con-artists and hypocrites". I think most of them are just credulous dupes!

"If God chose George Bus of all the people in the world, how good could God be?"
Bill Maher
Edited by - walt fristoe on 07/11/2005 19:13:12
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walt fristoe
SFN Regular

USA
505 Posts

Posted - 07/11/2005 :  19:19:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send walt fristoe a Private Message
How can an atheist blame God when someone gets cancer, when they don't believe in God? Wouldn't that be like an adult blaming Santa Claus for not getting any Christmas presents?

"If God chose George Bus of all the people in the world, how good could God be?"
Bill Maher
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Siberia
SFN Addict

Brazil
2322 Posts

Posted - 07/12/2005 :  07:40:33   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Siberia's Homepage  Send Siberia an AOL message  Send Siberia a Yahoo! Message Send Siberia a Private Message
Exactly, Walt. Something I tried to explain to my mom, but she prefers to think I'm just angry.

"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa

"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2996 Posts

Posted - 07/12/2005 :  09:37:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message
I didn't realize athesits blamed god for anything...I certainly don't. Of course, I say "goddammnit", but that's a figure of speech.

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
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