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 It's about the Menagerie, not the Mythology!
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13462 Posts

Posted - 07/06/2005 :  16:07:16  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message
This just in from:
The Center for Inquiry - International 

quote:
CFI:For ten years, evangelical Christian Dan Hicks has been vexed by the Tulsa Zoo's statue of Ganesh (the elephant-headed god of Hindu lore). And for ten years, he's tried to get the zoo to represent his religious perspective too.

Now he's got his chance: in June 2005, the Tulsa Park and Recreative Board, which governs the zoo, voted to install a creationist exhibit in the zoo - not far from its exhibit on evolutionary science.

Take action - and let the authorites in Tulsa know that installing such a display would endorse bad science and be a bad strategy!


I urge you to follow the above link and send Tulsa a message.


Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project

Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 07/06/2005 :  17:56:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message
Creationist exibit, huh? Is that where have a zebra and a horse and say they are the same kind, then a man and an ape and say they are not?

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9669 Posts

Posted - 07/06/2005 :  21:32:58   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Ricky

Creationist exibit, huh? Is that where have a zebra and a horse and say they are the same kind, then a man and an ape and say they are not?

Goddamnit, Ricky, now I have caffee all over my keyboard!

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 07/06/2005 :  23:11:38   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
I actually don't have a problem with this if they clearly lump the Christian creationism myth with all the cute, disproven creation myths of other cultures.

The second some creationist moans their faith is being tarnished by being labeled a "myth," they can safely yank the whole thing down again. Creationism isn't supported by science. Stating otherwise in a publically funded institution violates the law and would be grounds for removal.

It's really a delicious dilemma to watch. Creationists can only keep the exhibit up with the other myths if they admit it's a fiction. Of course, this assumes the zoo will have a backbone about all this, which might be expecting too much.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 07/06/2005 23:13:27
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 07/07/2005 :  04:17:33   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert

I actually don't have a problem with this if they clearly lump the Christian creationism myth with all the cute, disproven creation myths of other cultures.

The second some creationist moans their faith is being tarnished by being labeled a "myth," they can safely yank the whole thing down again. Creationism isn't supported by science. Stating otherwise in a publically funded institution violates the law and would be grounds for removal.

It's really a delicious dilemma to watch. Creationists can only keep the exhibit up with the other myths if they admit it's a fiction. Of course, this assumes the zoo will have a backbone about all this, which might be expecting too much.



At last! SOMEBODY ACTUALLY, FUCKING AGREES WITH ME!!! Thanks, Double H!


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist

USA
4954 Posts

Posted - 07/07/2005 :  05:55:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cuneiformist a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert

I actually don't have a problem with this if they clearly lump the Christian creationism myth with all the cute, disproven creation myths of other cultures.

The second some creationist moans their faith is being tarnished by being labeled a "myth," they can safely yank the whole thing down again. Creationism isn't supported by science. Stating otherwise in a publically funded institution violates the law and would be grounds for removal.

It's really a delicious dilemma to watch. Creationists can only keep the exhibit up with the other myths if they admit it's a fiction. Of course, this assumes the zoo will have a backbone about all this, which might be expecting too much.
But it's not quite some simple-- at least, not how it was explained on NPR's Moring Edition yesterday.

I agree that if you're going to put some Buddist statue up by the elephant section (but the statue is of a fucking elephant), then placing a Bible verse up at some other section (say, the quote about emnity between man and snakes over the door to the repitles section?). But this guy wants to put up a stupid creationist earth-is-4000-years-old BS.

In other words, a comment or piece of art that fits some context seems fine, be it a piece of Native American lore, Bible verses or whatever. A Buddist statue doesn't try to espouse or push some Buddist cause-- it's a statue of some elephant-looking god near some elephants. But a creationist exhibit says here's how one segment of society views things, contra all of accepted science. And that's a step too far, if you ask me...

But a creationist display goes too far.
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pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2996 Posts

Posted - 07/07/2005 :  06:31:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message
I agree that the display should be allowed if it is put with other displays from other religious creation myths. This would put the christian myth at the same (and correct) level, giving it no other validity. I believe this would force the creationist to withdraw the request. So this is a win-win scenario. And even if the dispaly was allowed, it is still a win-win.

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 07/07/2005 :  06:50:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
Were I the director of this zoo (somebody's God should forbid) I'd happily put up the display. Then, I'd get the Art Dept. to make similiar for as many other creation myths as they could find. If that were not enough, then, in keeping with the general theme of the thing, I might 'create' a few of my own and give them all equal time and space.

And then ask the creationists what the hell they have to whine about, now. The answers should be interesting, those that are coherent.





"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13462 Posts

Posted - 07/07/2005 :  06:57:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message
quote:
in June 2005, the Tulsa Park and Recreative Board, which governs the zoo, voted to install a creationist exhibit in the zoo - not far from its exhibit on evolutionary science.

Where in the above does it say that the exhibit will present the creation myth as a myth? The intention is to present an alternate view of creation that directly challenges evolutionary science. Only the science part will be missing and will be replaced with pseudo-science.

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 07/07/2005 :  10:23:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Kil

quote:
in June 2005, the Tulsa Park and Recreative Board, which governs the zoo, voted to install a creationist exhibit in the zoo - not far from its exhibit on evolutionary science.

Where in the above does it say that the exhibit will present the creation myth as a myth? The intention is to present an alternate view of creation that directly challenges evolutionary science. Only the science part will be missing and will be replaced with pseudo-science.


Well, my understanding is that the creationists got their foot in the door by claiming other cultural and religious views were being presented and theirs was not. They didn't pretend that their views should be an alternative to the science presented at the zoo since they knew that would never fly.

As I said, it hinges upon the presentation the zoo adopts. If they present it as a legitimate origins premise with some scientific support then the display would be dishonest.

My gut says this display is coming down one way or the other. Present creationism as fact (or as a legitimate alternative viewpoint) and the zoo will be sued for teaching religion as science. Present creationism as myth and the creationists themselves will clamor to have it removed.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 07/07/2005 10:26:17
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 07/07/2005 :  11:13:01   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
Oh damn! I was a couple hundred words into a fine rant when the bastards stabbed me in the back with this:
quote:
TULSA, Okla. (AP) -- Tulsa's Park and Recreation Board voted Thursday morning to drop plans for adding a creationism exhibit at the Tulsa Zoo.

The board voted 3-to-1 to reverse last month's decision to allow the exhibit. Mayor Bill LaFortune was the only dissenting vote.

Ah well. I guess I'll have to wait until something else comes along. Phooy!



"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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furshur
SFN Regular

USA
1536 Posts

Posted - 07/08/2005 :  05:19:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send furshur a Private Message

quote:
TULSA, Okla. (AP) -- Tulsa's Park and Recreation Board voted Thursday morning to drop plans for adding a creationism exhibit at the Tulsa Zoo.

It's nice to see a little sanity every once in a while.

If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know.
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